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Electronics & Test

Were the Boeing 787 Batteries Cooled Properly?

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Nugent_56
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Gold
unproven technology..
Nugent_56   1/28/2013 10:38:30 AM
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It would seem that not enough is known about the characteristics of this chemistry when used in aircraft systems where high altitudes are encountered. If a cooling system is deemed necessary, it will require redundancy for safety purposes. This of course will require futher testing and approval by the FAA for airworthyness.  Perhaps a step back to a known and proven battery technology could be used temporarily at the cost of reduced capacity, but at least it will get the aircraft flying once again until a new, improved battery design can be readied.

adip
User Rank
Iron
Re: Design Decisions
adip   1/28/2013 10:51:05 AM
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There is someting fishy,for decades I have used embedded temperature sensors in all batteries, it is a part of my designed cell balancing and battery management systems, surely sudden temperature surges would be recorded -of course it will not prevent explosion due to O2 accumulation. I have seen cost saving measures causing accidents -but in aerospace!!

bdcst
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Cooling System
bdcst   1/28/2013 10:51:24 AM
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Many Lithium ion batteries are not actively cooled but do manage not to burst into flames.  Most laptop batteries, camcorder batteries, etc., manage to function without active cooling.

Looking at the photos of the Boeing 787 battery pack I can only make out a single pair of high current output pins that ties the battery to the aircraft's power bus.  If so, then all charging and discharging is going through that single pair of contacts, which means the cell monitoring and charging circuitry must live inside the battery.  So, if the battery got too hot, possible runaway condition, it could have fried the controller thus disabling any chance of shut down or external alarm.

It would be foolish to not have additional wiring to enable external monitoring and control of the pack.  Virtually every Lithium ion camcorder battery communicates with its host as do many other consumer and professional battery packs.

Not having active cooling and external monitoring of system temperature for an aircraft battery system would seem foolhardy.

Nancy Golden
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Cooling System
Nancy Golden   1/28/2013 10:55:34 AM
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Battar, your principle is sound but the article suggests that the cooling system may have been inadequate. Seems to me they might not have asked the question properly...and in a critical application safety margins for proper operation would be pretty important.

nelso7926
User Rank
Iron
Re: Design Decisions
nelso7926   1/28/2013 10:58:32 AM
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This was a massive integration effort with literally thousands of verification tests. Notwithstanding it's relative criticality, if this is the biggest issue Boeing can pat themselves on the back, but (as previously mentioned) they must move expeditiously to arrest the problem, accept full culpability, and implement a lasting fix before their market share begins to suffer. The Defense industry has thought me that these post-production woes are intrinsic in a project of this magnitude; thank God the problem was discovered without catastrophic consequences.

RFI-EMI-GUY
User Rank
Silver
Re: Cooling System
RFI-EMI-GUY   1/28/2013 11:48:23 AM
It looks like control electronics reside inside the battery pack, so yes they would be subject to rising temperatures AND if electrolyte sprays on the control board all bets are off. This does not appear to be an intrinsically safe design.

Paul Murk
User Rank
Bronze
Were the Boeing 787 Batteries Cooled Properly
Paul Murk   1/28/2013 1:25:43 PM
The litium battery must be observed in its used enviroment. We are talking low atmospheric pressure and the batteries could be outgassing causing a rupture between layers. Include with that plane vibration from jet engines could play in deterioating loose layers within the battery. The colder temperature at that altitude could have cause contractions the batteries should not have seen. As I remember the batteries should have thermal monitoring device and balance circuits to prevent heavy discharge and charge. So Rapid short within the batteries due to enviromental such as atmospheric condition not designed into the battery compartment would give a clue why the thermal sensing did not have time to respond and shut down.

You cannot analyze this by the damaged batteries alone. And new set for enviromental testing needs to be done to characterize the destruction.

Elizabeth M
User Rank
Blogger
Let's hope they get the chemistry right
Elizabeth M   1/28/2013 2:52:53 PM
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If this is true, then it's a bit scary to think this could happen again. Let's hope engineers get the battery chemistry right next time so something like this doesn't happen again and cause an even more dangerous situation.

Ann R. Thryft
User Rank
Blogger
Batteries, not composites
Ann R. Thryft   1/28/2013 4:25:02 PM
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At least no one's blaming this on the plane's use of carbon composites.

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Let's hope they get the chemistry right
Charles Murray   1/28/2013 4:47:02 PM
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They will get it right eventually, Liz. But it could take a while. Over the weekend, CNET published a story in which they, too, interviewed Donald Sadoway of MIT. Sadoway told them that the problems could keep the 787 fleet grounded until 2014.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57566066-76/boeing-battery-solution-may-keep-787-grounded-until-2014/

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