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Electronics & Test

Custom Chemistry Could Bode Well for Start-Stop Batteries

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Gorski
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Start-stop batteries
Gorski   6/5/2013 1:58:06 PM
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The chemistry is beyond me but it sounds good. Why did the battery consortiom fork over millions of dollars for this technology. They could have gotten it much cheaper by going out and playing a round of golf in a golf cart. Golf carts have been stopping and starting for years.

Charles Murray
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Re: Start-stop batteries
Charles Murray   6/5/2013 6:53:17 PM
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Good point, Gorksi. Although, admittedly, golf carts don't have to start internal combustion engines.

loadster
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Re: Start-stop batteries
loadster   6/6/2013 10:03:37 AM
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Golf carts are not an equivalent parallel for this application. They are marketed for a sport that takes a perfectly good piece of desert and paves it with money until its a thriving, hydro-succulent oasis that sucks more water and money. And somebody bets on how long it can last. And another Vegas, Atlantic City and Dubai is born.

This is about engine cutout and having 200-500 cold cranking amps available over and over not just 5 to 10 times a day. And the chemistry keepers need to do their best work ever.

What happened to the kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) volvo was working on with formula one racecars? Did they decide that having that high velocity flywheel in the trunk of a car was even more dangerous than a hydrogen tank or hydrocarbon fuel bottled up? That would be a good way to restart an engine even if it can't restore the car's kinetic energy.

Gorski
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Re: Start-stop batteries
Gorski   6/6/2013 12:18:21 PM
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Golf carts can stop and start 70 or more times in 18 holes of play. Multiply that by 2 or 3 rounds of golf a day for a season and you see that there is a lot of use. I think that technoligy has proven itself. Why is it not being exploited?

Gorski
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Re: Start-stop batteries
Gorski   6/6/2013 12:18:25 PM
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Golf carts can stop and start 70 or more times in 18 holes of play. Multiply that by 2 or 3 rounds of golf a day for a season and you see that there is a lot of use. I think that technoligy has proven itself. Why is it not being exploited?

loadster
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Re: Start-stop batteries
loadster   6/6/2013 1:05:26 PM
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Yamaha and harley and Club car and Cushman are all low horsepower, low torque and small displacement engines. I suppose the technology is scalable but they use standard lead acid batteries and the stop-start requirements are looking for something with more power density. Also the reliability and maintenance cycles are different. Most golf courses have dedicated service areas with constant work being performed on the failures that occur with regularity. This becomes overwhelming as the fleet ages and this is why golf cart business is enduring.

TJ McDermott
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Maybe multiple solutions are needed?
TJ McDermott   6/5/2013 11:06:57 PM
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If one is to solve the energy demand problems in this country, no one solution will work.  The Pacific NW has plenty of hydro electric potential, but is a rotten place for solar.  The southwest is exactly the opposite.  Tidal energy in Kansas is just plain silly.

A blended approach is necessary, multiple solutions.  Might using two different types of batteries make a better solution for vehicles?  This custom lithium chemistry for start-stop, and more conventional for regular operation?

Charles Murray
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Re: Maybe multiple solutions are needed?
Charles Murray   6/6/2013 7:38:51 PM
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Yes, TJ, a blended approach will absolutely be necessary. High-energy lithium batteries for stop-start are overkill. Considering the number of vehicles that will use stop-start in a few years, there's a large nough market there to support a custom battery formaulation.

Charles Murray
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Blogger
Re: Maybe multiple solutions are needed?
Charles Murray   6/6/2013 7:41:46 PM
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Here's another alternative -- a custom battery formulation for hybrids.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1366&doc_id=250256

William K.
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Platinum
Start-Stop, and the required batteries
William K.   6/6/2013 9:26:48 AM
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Golf carts are a very poor example of any aspect of EV or HEV technology.

But much of the restart energy for a real start-stop drive system could come from a large capacitor, since with a warmed up fuel injected engine extended cranking would never be needed. One cylinder and one compression stroke and it should be running. A new battery technology may be quite worthwhile, but really, a capacitor should be able to deliver enough power for normal restarting. Of course the entire concept could easily be ruined by the wrong control algorithm, which I anticipate the first generation will be a miserable failure because the control algorithm will be totally wrong. The other requirements for maximum saving will be to allow driver control plus free-wheeling coasting. The downside is that it will require the vehicle to have non-powered steering, since the loss of power assist will render most drivers unable to steer the vehicle. But power steering for a small, light vehicle is really a waste of energy and an excess mechanical feature that only adds weight and complexity.

Ratsky
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Traffic!
Ratsky   6/6/2013 1:04:36 PM
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As one who commutes daily over 13 miles of extremely congested roadways, I wonder about how "start-stop" will help much if at all in that environment.  Typically, in the worst areas, you stop VERY frequently, but only for a few moments, then start crawling again.  I estimate on an average day, I would come to a complete stop (momentarily) and start motion again (15-30 seconds later) perhaps 50 or more times each way.  BTW, at least half of these cycles would be completely unnecessary if it were not for the many "over-reactive" drivers  whose reaction to ANYTHING is to slam on their brakes!

Charles Murray
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Re: Traffic!
Charles Murray   8/28/2013 4:29:09 PM
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I'm sorry I didn't see your comment earlier, Ratsky. You raise an excellent point about decelerating to a crawl without stopping. There's been a lot of discussion about this and it's not clear how the auto industry will handle it. The most basic problem is synchronizing the starter motor to the powertrain's spinning ring gear during deceleration. Some suppliers say they can do it reliably now, but I don't expect to see this feature reach wide application for a while.

Ratsky
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Re: Traffic!
Ratsky   8/28/2013 9:13:56 PM
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That's another advantage of the "motor-generator" with regenerative braking approach.  It's ALWAYS turning and doesn't need the solenoid/cog/etc. stuff.

Gorski
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Platinum
Start-Stop batteries
Gorski   3/27/2014 9:34:26 PM
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I think start-stop is another way to improve gas mileage, especially at rail crossings. What I don't understand is why are we reinventing the wheel? Golf carts have been start-stopping for years. I don't hear anybody picking up on their technology. It works, use it.

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