Materials & Assembly

Slideshow: Automotive's Electric Vehicle Evolution

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Jim Bullis - - Miastrada Company
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Re: A long and winding road
Jim Bullis - - Miastrada Company   8/27/2011 12:51:34 PM
Re Jerry dicus,


You seem not to see the problem when you say EV owners with PV make the 33 kWhr per gallon figure accurate.  Even fully captive PV out in the woods or someplace does not make that figure accurate.  Instead it makes it absurdly inaccurate in the other direction. 

The heat from a gallon of gasoline, or the same heat from any fuel, is subject to the effects of heat engines.  Roughly ten to fifteen kWhr is about all that can be done with that amount of heat. 

It does not take any heat from fuel to make electricity with PV.  This gives you a divide by zero computation, which makes the 'equivalent' a very large, undefined number.  It could be arbitrarily large for plug-in hybrids using some gasoline, depending on the charging frequency. 

For most PV installations though, the presence of this does not mean the electric car holds PV output captive.  If reducing CO2 is the goal, then the PV output should be sold to the grid whereby the result could be reduction in use of coal.  From that basis, making the independent decision to buy an EV would cancel that benefit.   

Jerry dycus
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Re: A long and winding road
Jerry dycus   8/26/2011 6:40:47 PM

     Facts are we have cut our coal use by 20% over the last 10 yrs about about to cut it another 20% in the next 7 yrs according to the utility industry so hardly converting  from oil to coal. 

      Why did you pick the lowest eff coal plant, old ones about to close to compare instead of newer units that get 40% to 58% for NGT/CC units which are the type that are replacing coal?

       Many EV buyers also have PV and car companies are selling a PV option making the 33kw/gal figure accurate.

       Then not bothering to mention ICE's are only 7%!!!  eff gas tank to wheel.  Vs EV's that are 21-65% eff depending on the electric source? Nor the 3kwhrs or oil, sulfur waste generated by making the gasoline?

       It's also much easier to keep one smokestack clean Vs 1,000 of car exhausts.

        My EV's are lightweight and use forklift EV drive tech and I only spend $1-2/week because I get 35 and 70wthrs/mile or  15-30 miles/kwhr. Doing the math that comes to 250-500mpge at 40% eff.  Now how is even burning 10% of the weight of coal vs gasoline  going to produce more CO2 than burning 10x's the gasoline?

      We don't need better batteries though that would be nice, just well designed EV's as EV's.  I build mine in composite monocoque body/chassis lowers weight while increasing strength along with good aero, lowering power needed, thus battery pack size, costs.

      So go ahead and drive gasoline and be paying $100-$200/week and twice that in a few yrs while I can spend $1500 on PV oanels for 25 yrs of transport energy.  How much will you spend in that time on gas?  At 10gal/week over just 5 yrs comes to about $35k vs $1500 for my EV's.  Now which is the smart way?


Charles Murray
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Cost too high, energy too low
Charles Murray   8/25/2011 5:21:33 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the oil companies and auto companies at some point in the past thought about supressing alternative-fuel vehicles. But the truth is, they've never needed to do it. Battery technology has never really reached a point where it would need to be supressed. Its energy density is a fraction of gasoline's energy density. Its cost is still too high. Universities and national labs have worked hard on the development of this technology for decades and the results have been steady, but slow. Bill Gates has said that he has invested in five battery start-ups and has said that battery innovation "may not be solvable in an economic way." It's a little hard to believe that all of these people and organizations -- national labs, universities, Bill Gates' start-ups -- have all been bought off by the oil companies.

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Re: A long and winding road
dj95401   8/24/2011 3:20:08 PM
The Internet didn't have to buck the Oil Companies during it's development either :) Dan,  Santa Rosa, Ca. USA

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Re: A long and winding road
dj95401   8/24/2011 3:11:19 PM
I totally agree with you Chuck. It's my feeling that the Oil Companies are the culprit behind the lack of advancement of alternate energy. The stockholders have a lot to loose, if any apparatus put on the market that either increased fuel mileage or eliminated petrol fuel altogether. I also think that this the reason why Nuclear Power Generation advancement has been suppressed over the years. When was the last time you heard of a Nuclear accident on board a Navy vessel? Granted, spent fuel storage is still a problem, but again, that technology also has been suppressed.  You right that all these people want to plug in their Green Vehicles, that are still being charged by Fossil Fuel Generators! That makes a lot of sense to me!! LMAO over that one! =))  What has happen in Japan, was an accident waiting to happen. A sad,sad lesson hard learned, you don't put your emergency back-up systems at or below ground level in areas that could be subjected to tsunami flooding. That was a Black Eye to Nuclear Power and all the advancements that had occurred up to this point in time. Dan, Santa Rosa, California, USA

Chuck Solid
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Re: A long and winding road
Chuck Solid   8/23/2011 8:41:06 PM
Quoth Scotty.."Ya canna change the laws of physics Cap'n"

With regard to electrically powered vehicles, I admire the perseverence and optimism of all parties concerned and champion their achievements.  Unfortunately, as a builder of electric vehicles, (kiddie-ride trackless trains), I would be the first to acknowledge that we have really not advanced terribly much at all.

Daimlers' four stroke engine was built in 1876.  One hundred and thirty years later, we still have the same problem that any reciprocating engine is only capable of a finite speed before it self destructs.  Looked at realistically, if a design student of today were to announce "I've invented  a device which accelerates a chunk of metal from rest, to four times the speed of sound, to rest, over a distance of 70 millimeters, and then reverses that action and repeats it 200 times per second, and it will power the worlds transport",  people would laugh.

Alessandro Volta "invented" the first true battery in 1800.  The Ni-Cad battery was patented in 1899.  Edison was also developing Nickel-Iron batteries at the end of the 19th century. Electric cars and trains were common in the early 1900's.

Sadly, in 110 years, there has not been the "Quantum Leap" in technology that we had hoped for. ( although it was evidenced in air transport.)

The same problems that dogged Edison: limited range, charging time far exceeding usage time,  weight of battery packs etc. are still dogging current developers and there appears no immediate solution.

For me, the saddest aspect is that all the "well meaning but totally ignorant brigade", (Politicians, Media types, "Green" Pressure Groups and the bulk of the general public,) have no concept of the embodied energy in electric vehicles or the cost of replacement and disposal of batteries.

Worst of all, the worlds' generators will still keep spinning 24/7 and pumping out CO2 in order to keep these "Energy Saving" vehicles topped up.

Chuck Solid

Melbourne Australia


allan rosman
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Re: Battery vs Hydrocarbons
allan rosman   8/23/2011 7:17:21 PM
Ivan is proposing a "financial" solution to help promote the introduction of the electric car.

However, I believe that any technology that requires "financial help" is suspect.

And the electric car confirms this. The energy required to build an electric car, the power grid and power plants, has no energy pay back, and the emmissions of all these investments are many times over the CO2 emmissions savings in the future and happen during the initial investment period.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

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Electric cars - some thoughts
BobGroh   8/23/2011 10:16:46 AM
We (as a nation and as a planet) are facing many challenges and it certainly is making for some interesting times! Electric cars are certainly one of the areas of interest - principally because they are part of the bigger conundrums - our ever increasing need for energy, for transportation, etc versus limited sources for energy and a increasing awareness of many tradeoffs that need to be made (e.g. global environmental changes). 

One of the pluses to electric cars (outside of the inherent 'coolness' factor) is that electricity is a good common denominator between energy sources (e.g. coal, nuclear, solar, wind, natural gas) and a inherently mobile energy consumer (i.e. the vehicle). So no matter how the electricity is generated, it can be used in the vehicle.

Yes, I would still love to have an electric car.  Although I would certainly need an auxiliary engine on board for a long cruising range.

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Re: A long and winding road
vandamme   8/23/2011 9:38:13 AM
"I'm a bit disatisfied that we've not yet travelled to the stars?"

Well, sorry, we don't have time to do that, and we have real work to do down here. As for electric cars, they've been trying to get battery energy density and recharging speed closer to the performance of fueled vehicles, and still lag way behind. Sure would be nice if somebody came up with a fuel cell that would take liquid fuel, so we could use existing infrastructure and not need so many batteries.

Ivan Kirkpatrick
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Battery vs Hydrocarbons
Ivan Kirkpatrick   8/23/2011 9:35:35 AM
I consider myself a proponent of electric vehicles however there seems to be a lot of new hydrocarbon sources.  One book I studied indicated that no matter what happens politically with the AGW issues, the world is going to use all available hydrocarbons.  Coal oil and gas will be burned to create the energy we need to fuel the electric power plants and provide the fuel for our cars.

Battery technology is almost ready to give us the same range and convenience we expect from our gas fueled vehicles but it will still be a few more years.  Until then, we might have some hybrids, some vehicles powered by apparently abundant natural gas and some electric vehicles.

It seems the transition to electric might never be complete and the availability of cheap hydrocarbons will extend the life of vehicles with these fuels.  

If we assume for the purposes of discussion that electric vehicles are much better for most drivers, the economy and the environment perhaps the best way to accelerate the shift to electric vehicles is to raise the hydrocarbon costs significantly.  Anyone for extra taxes on gas to promote electrics?

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