How Meaningful Is 230-MPG?

“With control of more than 99 percent of the world’s production of these minerals, China could try to use a ban to force other countries to buy the crucial motors for these high-tech end products, instead of just the minerals, directly from China.”

Google “China’s Threat Revives Race for Rare Minerals BRADSHER”

Other hybrid problems.

The electric motor in Toyota’s /quotes/comstock/13*!tm/quotes/nls/tm (TM 81.48, -0.75, -0.91%) /quotes/comstock/!7203 (JP:7203 3,710, -100.00, -2.62%) market-leading Prius hybrid, for example, requires 10 to 15 kilograms of lanthanum for the battery, according to William Gamble, president of Emerging Market Strategies in Rhode Island.

The Prius’ battery also uses 1 kilogram of neodymium, the key component in the alloy for permanent magnets, he said.

Google “china rare earth metals saefong”

I wrote a blog entry on this general topic at oybama.com (Energy Facts). Comparing electrical energy with gasoline energy is difficult because in the U.S. very little gasoline is used for the electrical grid. Until more nuclear power comes online (if ever), electric cars basically burn coal or natural gas, indirectly. In any case, 230 mpg is not justifiable by any logic based in physics, so one can conclude that it is propaganda.

Looking at the published conversion factor gasoline has an energy equivalent of 34 Kw-hrs/gal not 82 Kw-hrs/gal as indicated by the EPA in the article. In fact it will vary depending on many factors so why the 3 decimal places (looks accurate!?).

It is time for some honesty so that we can move forward with knowledge not wishes.

For electric vehicles the cost per mile would be easy to figure out if the manufacturer stated KWHr per mile or per Km. If you charge at home, you know the cost per KWHr. Now, the manufacturer should specify KWHr/Km for a constant acceleration from 0 to maybe 100Km/Hr,

constant speed at some (same ?)speed and also regeneration at constant deceleration from 100 Km/Hr to zero.

The technical approach to milage rateing is one issue. Another is the political and regulatory. The present Fleet Milage goal covers only conventional fuel vehicles. When vehicles (electric or otherwise) are introduce that have mpg ratings of 130 or more, they greatly lower the present fleet average. Without changing the fleet numbers, there can and will be more low milage vehicles allowed. Gas consumption by fleet will not change. We first must establish the methods, then alter the fleet numbers as well.

Many of the above hybrid skeptics have missed a couple of important features, namely that regen braking recovers significant energy, and that the IC/generator has the *potential* to make useful power more efficiently than a pure IC system. Many of the skpetics come off as sounding like curmudgeons, while some who are passionate about the virtues of green technology sound like air-heads. (just an observation)

I think HAL was approaching the meaningful standard. Pennies per mile.

That means something to most customers, regardless of their environmental positions. When I buy a car, I start with the assumption that most manufacturers have had a design life of 100,000 miles before you expect (not always the same as what you experience) many significant repairs. So a $20,000 car itself is worth about 20c/mile before its cost gets unpredictable. If you know your car’s mileage and how much you spent on fuel, you can get an accurate energy cost per mile. Once you know your electricity cost, you can do the same if you know the kW-hr per mile for your EV. Then you add taxes, insurance, financing, and scheduled maintenance for your total cost to drive.

It turns out that at today’s electricity costs, some EVs have energy costs well below that of gasoline. The question becomes will the price of electricity get more expensive compared to gasoline as more EVs and PHEVs get on the grid.

One surprise in our experience so far is the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight batteries have been very reliable and there have not been a lot of complaints about replacement costs which are high.

One thing we all need to remember is the value of regenerative braking possible in hybrid and electric vehicles. This recovers a lot of energy normally lost in braking and is the reason the city mileage of most HEVs is as good as or even better than highway mileage. The energy saved is hard to quantify since it is dependent on driving style and how good the regenerative braking system of a given vehicle is.

Last time I checked we were very concerned with brownouts especially in the summer months. Does this mean that I will eventually have to choose between charging my battery powered car and running my AC in the summer? Can’t wait till everyone gets home at 6 and plugs in the electric car and shuts down the distribution grid.

Econonomically plug in cars don’t make sense for the owner. They are 1-1/2 to 2 times the cost and eventual battery replacement cost will probably force the owner to abandon the concept. The reason for the electric car is to produce less greenhouse gas. After the losses getting the power to the house and the efficiency of the generation process, if the generator is coal fired the gasoline powered vehicle is just as clean. Until the recycle / disposal of the battery and it’s heavy metals put the electric alternative on the downside. If youre going for electric you’re better off going hybrid at 50 MPG. At least that number is realistic and it has predictable emmissions.

All of the above comments and calculations pertain to the cost to the ENVIRONMENT of operating these cars, as if that is what all consumers are concerned with, or should be concerned with, exclusively. However, what most consumers are really concerned with is the cost of fuel, whatever form it is in, per mile driven. For plug-in hybrids, a single number cannot express this - a table or graph of 2 values is required. The independent variable is Trip Length and the dependent variables are KWH of electricity (which includes inefficiency of the charger and battery) and gallons of gasoline. One could go a step further to assume an average cost/KWH and cost/gallon of gas and plot a third independent variable - Cost of Trip or Cost Per Mile.

So burning fuel so the engine can turn the wheel, is not as good as burning fuel so the engine can turn a generator to make electricity to turn an electric motor to turn the wheel . You expect anyone to fall for that crap, it defies the laws of physics.

It isn’t so much a draft methodology as it is a daft methodology.

I’ll just consider them idiots, unworthy of consideration, until they can come up with something that is meaningful.

So, using Mike C ’s calculations (which make more sense than anything else) the Chevy volt gets 30 miles per gallon and the Nissan Leaf gets 49. This is the mediocre gain I expected from auto manufacturers. Using a formula assuming ZERO LOSS is also what I expected for the advertised spec.

It’s like I tell my EV car friends - “Great! I like your 63% coal/natural gas car. It’s so green!”

Odd numbers. Using teh normal specicif fuel burn of a high compression fuel injected gasoline engine running at its torque peak at a lean of peak condition , I calculated gasoline in an internal combustion engine as providing about 11 Kwh hours per gallon. THe 82 figure is 7. 5 time that. There fore the EPA system ignores all thermodynamics and assumes the full oxidated energy of the fuel is turned into road horse power. Even adding in the efficiency of stationary power plants this equivalency is pure fantasy.

Electricy for the volt if provided by the US power grid is a combination of coal, oil gas turbine and nuclear with a bit of hydro electric and wind thrown in for good measure. A balanced energy base would be a reasonable estimate for equivalacy, what that is I would not know.

If however it is based on the power train in the volt the nuber I previously gave is too generous since that is based on IC engines more efficent than the one in the volt.

it sound like politics to me,.

To be more meaningful, the electric energy should include a factor for the efficiency of generating the electricity and factors for transmission and distribution losses. Power plants have efficiencies of only about 30 %.Transmission and distribution losses vary considerably but certainly are several per cent. Another way to look at this is to determine the energy cost per mile, which is perhaps the greatest concern of the average motorist.Even after making these discounts, the claimed efficiencies are still remarkable.

you’re got to be joking