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Slideshow: Aston Martin Puts Hydrogen on the Race Track

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Mydesign
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Platinum
Hydrogen Engine
Mydesign   5/10/2013 6:28:08 AM
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""Hydrogen has great potential as a fuel source, and we think it deserves further investigation,"

Charles, there is no doubt about that. But I think we have to modify the engine for fine tuning with hydrogen fuel.

Mydesign
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Re: Hydrogen fueling stations?
Mydesign   5/10/2013 6:33:41 AM
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"While this is an interesting development as far as the racing using hydrogen goes, the problem still remains the same.  How do you fuel these things.  A dual fuel capability is very good, and could perhaps lead to something useful."

Naperloue, I think the issue you had mentioned can be addressed in future. When technology develops further and goes for mass production, such cost factors can be come down. Now a day's most of the cars are fitted with hybrid fueling systems and this can provide an alternate fuel option to the users.

j-allen
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Gold
Hydrogen powered cars
j-allen   5/10/2013 8:38:23 AM
Elemental hydropgen does not exist in the atmospere, nor does it squirt out of a well in Texaa, or from some land we might conquer.  The only commercial sources are "stripping" hydrocarbons such as methane, or by electrolyzing water.  The former delivers hydrogen with considerably less heat of combustion than the hydrocarbon with which you started, and the carbon component of the feedstock is generally released as CO2.   Electrolysis is also inefficient (50-60%), and that's AFTER you have run a heat engine on fossil fuel at <50% efficiency to generate the electricity, so your overall conversion from fuel to hydrogen energy is <20%.  Electrolysis might make sense from a renewable source when its generating capacity exceeds demand and the extra would otherwise be wasted.  So, let's take our slide rules out of our rectums before waving those cheerleading pompoms. 

Second, running an Otto cycle engine on hydrogen is no big deal.  The same diaphragm carburetors that we use for propane or natural gas will handle hydrogen. 

jayh
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Iron
Re: Hydrogen on Race Track
jayh   5/10/2013 9:39:34 AM
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I find it interesting that the interest in hydrogen is considered new. Check out the work of Roger Billings at http://www.billingsenergy.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_E._Billings. He was doing significant research in the 1970s.

Contrarian
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Gold
Hydrogen - can't get there from here.
Contrarian   5/10/2013 9:51:41 AM
Hydrogen powered cars are nothing new.  I can remember news stories in the 1970's that showed reporters putting a cup under the tailpipe of a hydrogen powered car and drinking the condensed steam coming out (yuk).


To throw another wet blanket on hydrogen, it's difficult to transport.  Liquifying it isn't practical and any pipelines used to convey it would need to be stainless to minimize the corrosive and embrittlement effects of hydrogen gas on metal.


At least with battery electrics and hybrids, and even propane and natural gas, the infrastructure largely exists.  With hydrogen none exists.  I wouldn't expect to see hydrogen vehicles on the showrooms anytime soon.  Hydrogen gas as a stored fuel is a non starter.

rchin02150
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Iron
Re: It's vaporware
rchin02150   5/10/2013 11:04:23 AM
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I disagree - the Honda FCX Clarity is ready for production as soon as 2018 depending on the hydrogen infrastructure.

California already started putting in hydrogen fueling stations.

There are already around >50Honda FCX Claritys being leased..

The great thing about hydrogen is that it can be produced from almost anything - there are even home gas furnaces that can produce hydrogen - imagine having your own hydrogen fueling station at home - kind of ruin most business models.

Only reason you haven't heard much about hydrogen cars is the lack of publicity stemming from current bad governement investments.

Also having worked on pure electric vehichles - this type of technology is still a long way off from being practical.

kf2qd
User Rank
Platinum
How about some common sense...
kf2qd   5/10/2013 11:19:36 AM
Hydrogen is about as impractical a fuel as could possibly exist.

#1 - where do we get it from, and how much energy do we have to expend to get it in a usable form? Any source of hydrogen has a very high energy cost as compared to the final energy available from the final hydrogen fuel. So far, all the schemes I have heard of require 3 to 4 times the energy expenditure as compared to the amount of energy available from the final hydrogen.

#2 - Safety - Having worked with a welding process that used hydrogen - Hydrogen will burn with just about ANY combination with air. And you can't see the flame. Hydrogen is very hard to contain as the small molecule will leak out of a vessel and piping system that can safely hold any other gas.

#3 - Considerring the skills of the average driver... Are you going to trust the average driver to manipulate the special refueling gear required to refuel a hydrogen vehicle? And how much is having a skilled refueling tech going to add to the cost of the process?

 #4 - What is the real pollution cost? Just becausae the car would emit just water does not take into consideration the pollution cost through the whole supply chain. What is the source? Petroleum? Might as well burn the petroleum in the car as it will still be less efficient to create the hydrogen and thgen burn it. Something has to supply the energy to produce the hydrogen, so how much junk is produced by that process? An electic car doen't pollute out its own tailpipe, it just has a tailpipe at the power plant...

ChasChas
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Platinum
Hype
ChasChas   5/10/2013 11:40:07 AM
 

For general use, hydrogen cars are not energy/money savers.  They would barely be mentioned except for government grant money and people trying to justify the use/waste of said money.

Racing with hydrogen? Fine.  But it is all smoke and mirrors as far as making hydrogen appear feasible.

billvon
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Silver
Nice idea in theory but . . .
billvon   5/10/2013 12:00:28 PM
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Hydrogen sounds like the ideal fuel.  It's light, it can be used with fuel cells, the only reaction product is water, heck, most of the universe is made of hydrogen!  And it just sounds very sexy.

But there are several things that make hydrogen a pretty poor fuel overall.


1) We don't have any.  This is the big one.  Very little exiats on Earth in molecular form (H2.)  That means we have to make it, and that takes energy.  Which means that hydrogen is not really a fuel - it is more like an energy carrier, a way to put energy into place A and extract it at place B.


2) It's hard to make.  Electrolysis isn't very efficient; an electrolyzer that can hit 70% is a pretty good one.  We can make it via thermal dissociation, but to do that we'd really need new nuclear reactor technologies (high temperature gas reactors to be specific.)  And that's a ways out.  We can break it down from natural gas, but that requires (you guessed it) natural gas.


3) It leaks like crazy.  It leaks through materials that would otherwise be considered impervious, due to its very small molecular size.  So you need to go to extremes in terms of pipe and tank wall thickness, seals, valves etc.  And even then you will inevitably get leaks.  Which leads to:

4) Danger of explosion.  Natural gas (a flammable gas that most people are familiar) is explosive; if you mix it with air at ratios between 5 to 15%, it will explode when an igniton source is present.  We're fortunate that it only explodes within this range, or else the gas pipes in your house would explode every time you had some plumbing work done and some air got into your gas lines.  As long as MOST of the gas in the pipe is natural gas you are safe. 

Hydrogen isn't like that.  Its ignition energy is much lower and it will explode over a range of 4% to 75%.  So it will explode over a range more than five times greater than natural gas, and the explosion will be easier to set off.  Examples of industrial accidents where just a small amount of air got into a hydrogen tank - rsulting in a massive explosion - are common.

5) It's hard to store.  Since it is so light you have to compress it a lot more - and more compression means a more expensive, more dangerous tank that gives you less range overall.  You can also liquefy it, but due to its low liquefication temperature this takes a lot of energy.

Most of these problems can be solved by adding a carbon to the mix, so that intead of H2 molecules you have CH4 (methane) molecules.  This results in a denser, easier to store, less leaky, less dangerous gas.  It also has the benefit that we currently have a lot of this fuel (natural gas) and it can be made quite easily from animal wastes and garbage.  Many farms power themselves from the methane collected from anaerobic digesters.

And if we ever do find a good source of hydrogen?  Combine hydrogen and atmospheric CO2 to give us methane and water via the Sabatier reaction.  We will have a carbon-neutral source of natural gas that will easy to store and use - and we already have a quite extensive infrastructure to store, transport and use it.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
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Platinum
Re: Hydrogen fueling stations?
OLD_CURMUDGEON   5/10/2013 12:08:35 PM
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naperlou:  If you remember just a few years back, SHELL OIL CO. sponsored print advertisements & other media ads showcasing their hydrogen dispensing kiosks in Finland.  IF my memory serves me, they included a highly modified FORD vehicle in the ad also.

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