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Slideshow: Profs Say Fukushima Plant Passed Ultimate Test

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Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: Good news for nuclear
Totally_Lost   5/9/2013 2:47:03 PM
Amclaussen writes:

One of the better citations in that book, is that of deceased president John F. Kennedy:

". . . The number of children and grandchildren

with cancer in their bones, with leukemia in their

blood, or with poison in their lungs might seem

statistically small to some, in comparison with natural

health hazards, but this is not a natural health

hazard—and it is not a statistical issue. The loss of

even one human life or the malformation of even

one baby—who may be born long after we are

gone—should be of concern to us all. Our children

and grandchildren are not merely statistics toward

which we can be indifferent. "

[U.S. President John F. Kennedy speaking about the necessity to stop atmospheric nuclear tests said in June 1963]

Too bad he was assasinated.

Amclaussen.

 

So I have to ask, why is it acceptable to poison, injure, and kill millions with fossil fuels, to save a few in relatively rare Nuke accidents, that with time and energy we can fix the flaws and retrofit poor designs to make safer than killing and posioning millions every year with fossi fuels.

Are not the baby's sick and dieing from polutions just as important? are not the kids dieing and sick from polution just as important? are not the adults sick and dieing from polution just as important?

 

We have a choice ... protect the many ...to protect everyone by working hard to make nuke power plants clean and safe.

This living in fear of an accident, while accepting millions dieing from fossil fuels is just plan WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

We can build safe nuke plants ... and stop fossil fuels from killing the many with cancers and poisons.

Why is radiation cancers so much feared ... while you accept millions of chemical cancers?


Amclaussen
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Good news? for nuclear...
Amclaussen   5/9/2013 2:28:00 PM
EXACTLY, patb2009.    That's WHY I was writing a comment to the comment of Charles about the "credentials" of the author of the article the professor and pair of Nuclear Engineers that were consulted... every time an event like this happens, it is NOT related to fundamental design, or particle physics doing strange things, but very common yet complex failure of much mundane little things, like valves, pumps, rupture discs and similar. THERE lies the problem: underestimating unpredicted cumulative little failures.  A subject that "isn't as important" as academics tend to dominate.  Placing the emergency generators in the basement, prone to flooding was a big mistake, too.

Amclaussen
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Good news for nuclear
Amclaussen   5/9/2013 1:49:17 PM
Yes Charles, but there lies the issue: they are into Physics!... most Physics Professors (PhD degree aside) tend to be "nice" toward nuclear matters. But at the same time they are quite ignorant about the real dangers and pitfalls of engineering designs. They tend to assume, for example, that a valve (or pump or whatever) will be available and ready in the critical moment, all the time.

Real life engineering shows us a very different picture. People that studied Physics and related disciplines are not as critical as is needed, simply because it is a subject that relates well with their choosen career, so that there is a natural, intangible sympathy with respect to anything that involves particle physics on the edge of the science. Think about the Physicists that collaborated with the development of nuclear weapons, even knowing those would produce massively destructive effects!

(I guess some biologists could be mesmerized by the "feat" of developing a mortal virus or powerful biological weapon...)

When assesing a technology that (as any other) has presented catastrophic failures, an ethical engineer must question itself about possible damages to others, before becoming too enchanted with the technology. Best wishes.  Amclaussen.

Amclaussen
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Yet undisclosed modes of failure.
Amclaussen   5/9/2013 12:28:40 PM
Wise words patb2009.

One of the worst consequences of accidents, is that some people never seem to learn from them. All designs have flaws, ALL. Some flaws are of little consequences, some are disasters waiting to happen. On Fukushima, designers in charge of the Lay-Out of the plant should be in jail! locating the emergency Diesel generators in the floodable basement, just because it was "convenient" was plainly dumb and is inexcusable.

Every time an installation (nuclear or not) goes into the News, we can find something that was not OK within the design.  You can pick any (the use of cementitious type of fireproofing coating on beams on the WTC, that is easily dislodged by an impact is one of many, the lack of means to assure generator engines from ingesting air ladden with natural gas and destroying themselves in the first large explosion (which sealed the fate of the platform) OR the failure to completely overcome the strenght of the drill pipe by the Ram type "Blow-Out Preventers" which were designed for weaker steel pipes and not redesigned for present day pipe strenghts in the Deepwater-Horizon disaster are just a couple of examples that show that WE, human designers are creatures prone to fail (as designers) and, on top of that, some irrational ones pretend our technology "is absolutely foolproof" (!).

If we pretend to be good engineering professionals, we must start developing some humility, and recognize we are far from being perfect "Kings of the creation".  An overly confident designer is the one most prone to seed a failure.

Amclaussen.

Amclaussen
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Good news for nuclear
Amclaussen   5/9/2013 11:56:22 AM
I beg you pardon, Rob, but I disagree with your impression that Nuclear is "safe", as the apparent impressions of others fail to gather the whole picture. I would  respectfully suggest you to read detailed books about the enormous consequences of the few nuclear accidents that were critically and properly reviewed. One of them is: "Chernobyl - Consequences of the Catastrophe for people and the environment by Yablokov, Nesterenko and Nesterenko; published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, Vol 1181. (it is only 326 pages long...BTW).

One of the better citations in that book, is that of deceased president John F. Kennedy:

". . . The number of children and grandchildren

with cancer in their bones, with leukemia in their

blood, or with poison in their lungs might seem

statistically small to some, in comparison with natural

health hazards, but this is not a natural health

hazard—and it is not a statistical issue. The loss of

even one human life or the malformation of even

one baby—who may be born long after we are

gone—should be of concern to us all. Our children

and grandchildren are not merely statistics toward

which we can be indifferent. "

[U.S. President John F. Kennedy speaking about the necessity to stop atmospheric nuclear tests said in June 1963]

Too bad he was assasinated.

Amclaussen.

 

Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: Fukishima a success? Doubtful -- Almost Certainly :)
Totally_Lost   5/8/2013 11:38:21 PM
NO RATINGS
Only time will tell ... :)

 

how about uploading your face shot .... rather than trying to be an anonymous troll?

patb2009
User Rank
Gold
Re: Fukishima a success? Doubtful -- Almost Certainly :)
patb2009   5/8/2013 10:33:19 PM
or Solar and Wind will keep getting cheaper, and battery will keep getting cheaper

and the nukes will continue to be more expensive and dangerous.

It better work out that way, because coal is getting more expensive

and oil/gas is unlikely to remain cheap, it's getting pricier every year

and nukes haven't worked out for 50 years.

 

 

Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: Fukishima a success? Doubtful -- Almost Certainly :)
Totally_Lost   5/8/2013 9:17:38 PM
NO RATINGS
patB writes: " It's a pity, the number of people who will be poisoned in a good sized accident, but, it's what the fanboys want."

 

or, the safety will continue to improve, there will not be an accident on US soil because of better regulations, and all the people that opposed earlier Nuke deployments and forced decades of increased fossil fuel use will go down in the history book as baby killers from elevated SIDS cases from the polution.

patb2009
User Rank
Gold
Re: Fukishima a success? Doubtful -- Almost Certainly :)
patb2009   5/8/2013 5:56:50 PM
NO RATINGS
David Lochbaum from UCS who is a certified reactor operator, says they should be made to conform to NFP805.

 

BTW, you are moving the goal posts, you went from claiming the industry is constantly improving to now demanding I prove the applicabilty of a regulatory standard.

 

Wow.

 

It's really okay, Nuclear is dying anyways.  The Cost/MW is continuing to move the wrong way, while solar and wind are moving the good way.  

 

One more good sized accident or a rise in interest rates, and the nuclear biz is over.

It's a pity, the number of people who will be poisoned in a good sized accident, but,

it's what the fanboys want.

Totally_Lost
User Rank
Silver
Re: Fukishima a success? Doubtful -- Almost Certainly :)
Totally_Lost   5/8/2013 4:29:36 PM
NO RATINGS
At the end of the day, all the NRC folks work for Obama. The buck stops at Obama's desk if he has hired the wrong people to protect the interest of the US public.

Launch a recal effort if he is failing to responsibly set and enforce the regulations that are required for safe operation of these plants.

 Go after the Senate leadership too, which have the oversight responsibities, as well as provide the direct authorization by law, that establish NRC guidelines and regulations.

If the regulators and inspectors are not doing their job, I'm sure that Obama and Reid would like to know.

Mean while, all these fossil fuel polutions really are affecting people:

www.nrdc.org/health/kids/ocar/chap4.asp

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247561/

www.environment.ucla.edu/reportcard/article.asp?parentid=1700

At least with pretty responsible NRC oversight, Nuke power isn't. Given that we produce more nuke power, I'm not convinced that it's just dumb luck ... more like good engineers.

Purposefully shifting production to fossil fuels, is killing and harming people.

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