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Home and Grid Energy Storage Gains Momentum

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Stephen_Paine
User Rank
Iron
Someday there may be a solution
Stephen_Paine   5/25/2015 10:26:42 PM
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To make alternative energy viable we need one of three things (maybe more)

1)  A renewable source that can provide energy 24/7  (Hrs/Day)

2)  A battery (or other form of storage) that is capable of saving and supplying energy so that a highly variable renewable supply will deliver energy on demand 24/7

3)  A fossil fuel backup that can come on line rapidly when the renewable source has low or no output.

# 1 is not currently available except a few special cases like hydro or geothermal. # 2 technically is available but with the batteries currently available not economically viable. # 3 is the way we are limping along now, but as more and more renewables come on line, new rapid response generators will need to be added. It could be done but the added cost will make the cost of renewables less attractive.

Right now there is no solution that is both technically and economically viable. Having the government pick up the cost doesn't solve the economic challenge.

Charging ahead with our currently available options won't be a long term solution.

Hope springs eternal.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
Jerry dycus   5/23/2015 2:32:18 PM
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Mega, paying high monthly fees and $.44/kwhr is why HE is going bankrupt. And with such a high and steady wind, solar for A/C peak and lots of biomass to gasify which the diesel engines they use are designed to run on with just a fuel mod to that model.

Looks ike NEE who except here in Fla where they own FPL, are the biggest US wind and solar producers, owners will buy HE.  Though for some reason many Hawaians don't want a outsider company. But how could anyone do worse?

 But many other places like some of the NE are paying $50/monthly fee and $.25/kwhr is 30-50% ROI .  If I lived up north my heating would be a slow turning engine making electric first.  Because it is easy for me I'd collect plastic or used oil to fuel it.

But I live in Fla where A/C is the big load I have making solar a perfect fit as no sun, little need for power, storage. My 34' trimaran sailboat I'm finishing now to retire on to run my A/C, cooking, fans, electronics, fridge, lights, power tools, electric blankets/chair, etc will only need  1 kw of solar for 20+ yrs  If all bought retail panels, inventer, bstteries, etc would only cost $1200. sunelec/dmsolar for parts.

My  8kw 45lb EV range extender is my backup.  Will only takes 15 minutes to recharge my 3kwhr of batteries.

Even here in $.12/kwhr Fla about US average though now viable with under $2k/kw solar equals about $.06/kwhr.

It can be done at low cost if one puts in the time to find the best way for ones needs. The savings can be $100's /hr of study  so well worth it.

I agree there are no problems, just opportunities.  Using solar, wind and one of the few places, things wave action can do is make clean fresh water in Cal.  I'd go the SuperStill route invented the last time Cal had a bad drought in Cal run on clean, low cost power.

There are so many solutions to energy problems if people bother to look and muxh money to be made.  I'm doing a cost effective home windgenerator for $1.5k/kw for production that will last 50+ yrs like the ones built in the 30's that are still running strong.

And a series of lightweight EV's.   There is a lot of money to be made replacing FF's, etc and few seem to be doing them so lots of room to grow.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
Jerry dycus   5/23/2015 2:32:18 PM
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Mega, paying high monthly fees and $.44/kwhr is why HE is going bankrupt. And with such a high and steady wind, solar for A/C peak and lots of biomass to gasify which the diesel engines they use are designed to run on with just a fuel mod to that model.

Looks ike NEE who except here in Fla where they own FPL, are the biggest US wind and solar producers, owners will buy HE.  Though for some reason many Hawaians don't want a outsider company. But how could anyone do worse?

 But many other places like some of the NE are paying $50/monthly fee and $.25/kwhr is 30-50% ROI .  If I lived up north my heating would be a slow turning engine making electric first.  Because it is easy for me I'd collect plastic or used oil to fuel it.

But I live in Fla where A/C is the big load I have making solar a perfect fit as no sun, little need for power, storage. My 34' trimaran sailboat I'm finishing now to retire on to run my A/C, cooking, fans, electronics, fridge, lights, power tools, electric blankets/chair, etc will only need  1 kw of solar for 20+ yrs  If all bought retail panels, inventer, bstteries, etc would only cost $1200. sunelec/dmsolar for parts.

My  8kw 45lb EV range extender is my backup.  Will only takes 15 minutes to recharge my 3kwhr of batteries.

Even here in $.12/kwhr Fla about US average though now viable with under $2k/kw solar equals about $.06/kwhr.

It can be done at low cost if one puts in the time to find the best way for ones needs. The savings can be $100's /hr of study  so well worth it.

I agree there are no problems, just opportunities.  Using solar, wind and one of the few places, things wave action can do is make clean fresh water in Cal.  I'd go the SuperStill route invented the last time Cal had a bad drought in Cal run on clean, low cost power.

There are so many solutions to energy problems if people bother to look and muxh money to be made.  I'm doing a cost effective home windgenerator for $1.5k/kw for production that will last 50+ yrs like the ones built in the 30's that are still running strong.

And a series of lightweight EV's.   There is a lot of money to be made replacing FF's, etc and few seem to be doing them so lots of room to grow.

megadesign@windstream.net
User Rank
Silver
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
megadesign@windstream.net   5/23/2015 1:25:44 PM
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Very interesting article or comment about $.44/KWH.  At that price it would pay for me to move and convert the Island to Solar and Wind Power.  I have also commented on the water shortage in California as a money making ordeal.  Sell them water and transport it.  If I had a 25 million Dollar house I would really be willing to pay for water.  I agree with your comments on energy and storeage.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
Jerry dycus   5/23/2015 12:27:35 PM
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New coal cost $4k/kw, wind $1k/kw and utility solar $2k/kw. 

So for a coal Kw you can have 2kw of wind and 1kw of solar with no fuel, it's handling, clean up,  pollution, etc costs.

Please tell me again how clean power costs more?  Math doesn't show it with recent contract lets.

I suggest reading Pennenergy and PowerEngineering websites, newsletters by the industry to learn what is actaully happening, real costs being paid. 

With a smart grid natural storage like hydro, EV's, home, building on demand/peak production DG, biomass, etc means little grid storage is needed, just adjust demand and supply with price incentives by paying what they are worth for them.

And since new utility generation is mostly load following just why is grid storage needed?

megadesign@windstream.net
User Rank
Silver
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
megadesign@windstream.net   5/23/2015 11:51:39 AM
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I thought all the comments were interesting but very vague.  I think we will require energy storeage with clean power and it could even help dirty power.  The point of coal dirt costing us money seems valid.  Cost is an issue but if the initial cost is high it doesn't matter as much that there is a fuel cost for a much lower priced installation.  What really matters to me is the truth behind our energy in this country and the world.  Is the energy totally driven by pure greed and is there a viable solution that would be cost effective?  I've done a lot of research and if there is a solution then it is pretty well hidden.  Solar and wind are expensive and not as predictable.  The idea of a good storeage unit would really help.

rja_wvu
User Rank
Iron
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
rja_wvu   5/23/2015 9:03:41 AM
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I agree: that "25% threshold" isn't a myth - Hawaii is in the precarious position of having no neigbours to act as a battery, and has to rely on fossil fuel "imported" from the mainland for their diesel generators. All the Caribbean islands are in a similar position.

With respect to your comment "Cal has passed 24% now and heading to 30% with no need of grid batteries", we have a potential "Fallacy of Composition", in that we can't all do the same thing as California without the entire situation collapsing. California is still connected to the rest of the US - Nevada in particular. We here in the eastern side of the continent could depend on solar-generated power from the western states to keep our lights on after darkness falls, but if the entire US was to attain to the same high level of wind and solar generation, Californians will have to revert to an agrarian lifestyle, as they have no-one to their west to keep their lights on.

In a very similar manner, Denmark is often portrayed as the poster child for the Generation of Alternative Energy (now approaching 50%, mostly using wind), without the necessary rider being revealed that they are attached to one humungous battery, known as "Germany", who now, in its turn, relies on the remainder of Europe and the remaining coal and nuclear facilities to share the load... 

- R

 

 

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
Jerry dycus   5/23/2015 8:56:11 AM
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Subnormal,

It is the small 7kw one used as just a backup and it won't be available for a while.

There amp is 8.5 at 360vdc so quite easy to run a toaster.  Though amazingly low 2-3kw output.

It is designed for solar storage so why are you listening to, believing  such lies?

Why does big wind, solar need storage?  It is handled  the same way varying demand has been done for 110 yrs now.   No?

If one adds capacity of any type doesn't increase back up, storage needs. Please show the math where that is true?

Why don't they have massive storage now?

That is a myth which Cal utilities kept running so Cal forced them to put in many MwHrs storage.  That will teach them.

Any possible grid battery needs is now moot with the new 60% eff NGGTCC planys that can throttle to 50% following the load eliminating any battery storage needs. No?

Just how does putting in clean power increase costs when they are lower cost and no fuel cost?

How do the clean utilities where legal like Texas take away PPA's/contracts/customers by charging less if clean power is more expensive?

Personally for me coal generation costs me $400/yr in higher, better protein costs as coal mercury poisoning limits fishI get for free, they actually jump in the bpat here in la my last trip, I can only eat 1/wk.

That is just one coal  pollution cost for 1 person is $400.  There are many others that increase YOUR income taxes by 7% to fix the pollution, healthcare, etc mess coal makes but doesn't pay for.

I guess you like getting screwed for coal corporate welfare and think we show keep paying it?

The State of Fla makes it illegal to make on demand clean or dirty power and sell it thus cutting 30k jobs we could have as utility corporate welfare.

Seriuosly try to be more accurate than parroting utility, FF propaganda that is screwing you, and you say, screw me again by your post.  What's up with that?  

 

 

 

 

 

ChasChas
User Rank
Platinum
People won't wait
ChasChas   5/20/2015 12:26:48 PM
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Electric car drivers need a gas backup for when they gotta go and can't wait for a charge - this alone nearly defeats the purpose of the electric car.

A home battery exchange is the only answer. This article brings out the feasibility of that. The home batteries would not be a single purpose solution.

Solar power, wind power, off peak savings, etc. become a reality.

It makes sense to keep energy solutions at home and reduce your energy dependency.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Home and grid energy storage gains momentum
Jerry dycus   5/20/2015 11:59:30 AM
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First large grid just don't need battery storage. And neither does solar or wind as just cheaper to turn on another generator.

The proof is until being forced and then only when basically given them free utilities just have no use for them.

Nor would homeowners with solar, wind if the utility paid what it was worth as just seen as a demand valley which grids have easily hadled for 100 yrs now.

As for % of solar, wind Cal has passed 24% now and heading to 30% with no need of grid batteries.

With a smart grid no reason for batteries to well over 50% of the grid. And large dumps like EV charging, syn fuels, etc will suck up the excess.  And each EV can with V2G put 100-300kw back into the grid for for peak and charge back in the  lulls. Multiply that by 1 million EV's in say LA.

Hawaii is so badly run at $.44/kwhr making solar payback in just 1 yr done right giving 100% ROI/yr for 20+ yrs, why would anyone stay with it's grid?  They are still running diesel engines!!  The most expensive generation when it's high steady wind, solar handling A/C peak with the same diesels running on biomass/syngas for the rest means they should be 100% clean low cost $.10/kwhr power.

The only reason for home batteries is time of day pricing or grid so expensive like Hawaii, Northeast, etc, just not worth staying ongrid.

Fact is the $15-50 monthly fee can pay for a lot of battery,  battery charging generator/heater plus no longer paying high kwhr rates in many places, it pays to leave the grid .

  Even here in Fla with $.12kwhr and $14/month fee because they won't pay what solar is worth and add fees to do it, means even at the national average going offgrid can be worth it in my new retirement home.

And of all batteries lithium is NOT the right one as many others are under $100/kwhr with unlimited life like the GE, Zebra Molten salt, many other types will win that market.

The only reason batteries are needed is grid greed making the market worth their expense. 

But there are viable ones now including real deep cycle lead, sub type for big grids have always been there for over 100 yrs now.  I've been doing them for 40 yrs with wind, tidal and diesel as only recently have solar been worth it.

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