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Engineering Materials
Drop Your Phone in the Sink – We Dare You
1/29/2013

UK-based P2i has developed a waterproof nano-coating that protects smartphones such as the Alcatel One Touch, and Motorola's RAZR and XOOM. We think the company should develop the technology for consumers who want to apply it to the devices they already own.   (Source: P2i)
UK-based P2i has developed a waterproof nano-coating that protects smartphones such as the Alcatel One Touch, and Motorola's RAZR and XOOM. We think the company should develop the technology for consumers who want to apply it to the devices they already own.
(Source: P2i)

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Nancy Golden
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Logical Progression
Nancy Golden   1/29/2013 10:25:35 AM
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Amazing technology - and a logical progression for protecting portable electronics. It seems like a good addition to production from both a manufacturer's and a consumer's standpoint as it will most certainly reduce warranty returns and repairs.

bennuss
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Re: Logical Progression
bennuss   1/30/2013 9:27:00 AM
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This already exists. LiquiPel does it and they are in the process of opening mall kiosks. This would not necessarily be prohibitively expensive if it is priced as an add-on with a reduction in the cost of  insurance  or a reduced deductible.

bennuss
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Re: Logical Progression
bennuss   1/30/2013 9:27:28 AM
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This already exists. LiquiPel does it and they are in the process of opening mall kiosks. This would not necessarily be prohibitively expensive if it is priced as an add-on with a reduction in the cost of  insurance  or a reduced deductible.

Daryl
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RDT (Reclamation of device from toilet) process
Daryl   1/29/2013 10:25:49 AM
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I have had multiple experiences with my children putting their cellphones through the toilet plunge. I have developed a RDT (reclamation of device from toilet) process that is 100 effective much to the happiness of my offspring so they didn't lose their contact list.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: RDT (Reclamation of device from toilet) process
Ann R. Thryft   1/29/2013 12:45:14 PM
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Daryl, my first draft was titled "Drop Your Phone in the Toilet", but I figured it might not get past the censors--just kidding. So, are you going to tell us more about your RDT device and the process you use?

williamlweaver
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Excellent Application!
williamlweaver   1/29/2013 1:33:36 PM
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Excellent Application, Ann! If the deposition device is as it appears in the video, about the size of a refrigerator, I can see a huge aftermarket for DIY or even technician-assisted "retrofitting" for all of your consumer electronics. I guess eventually everybody's stuff would be protected, but it would be a great short-term service! I wonder where you go to get a franchise... (thinking of Robin Williams sitting in a Photobooth...)

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   1/29/2013 2:51:22 PM
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william, that's much how I saw it: the deposition device does appear to be refrigerator-sized. However, I don 't think the process is likely to be a DIY-friendly one, which is why I was thinking of a Kinko's-type franchise, like your technical assisted model.

NadineJ
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Re: Excellent Application!
NadineJ   1/29/2013 6:33:51 PM
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Ann-I completely agree with your comment in the article.  If they can figure out how to apply this in the post-consumer market, it would be great.  I'd even bring my ipod.

Any "anti-cancer" protection would increase interest too.  I just listened to a very disturbing interview about the rise in breast cancer in teen girls and 20-something women who stash their phones in their bras.

For now, being able to make a call in the rain without fear is enough for me.

Dave Palmer
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Re: Excellent Application!
Dave Palmer   1/29/2013 6:51:57 PM
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@NadineJ: Anything associated with an increased cancer risk should be taken seriously, but I think that the evidence of a link between cell phone use and cancer is very weak.  Non-ionizing radiation doesn't cause DNA damage, as far as we know.

On the other hand, there is more credible evidence of a possible link between perfluorinated compounds and cancer.  So applying a perfluorinated coating to your cell phone could concievably increase, rather than decrease, your cancer risk.

3drob
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Re: Excellent Application!
3drob   1/30/2013 9:25:50 AM
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Dave P - not only are the florines nasty, but nano-materials themselves are of questionable safety.

I know, let's coat things that we handle every day with our bare skin (some people every few minutes) with something of unknown biological activity.

If you dump your phone in the toilet, learn the lesson and be more careful next time.  For me, I have 99% alcohol handy in my home to dry out any electronics that get wet.

Offbalance
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Re: Excellent Application!
Offbalance   1/30/2013 12:45:04 PM
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There are some devices that are sold specifically as more rugged, such as the Motorola Defy phones or Panasonic Toughbook. They sometimes have IP ratings for dust and moisture resisitance. Typically, for smartphones, the more rugged ones seem to be based on slightly older technology, so you get to choose if you want the latest and greatest, or the most rugged, but not both.

We already have conformal coatings. I can't imagine this coating will make much difference beyond the current state. The weak spot of the devices, in terms of immersion, is the seals around the buttons and the battery cover. These are locations that the consumer will eventually wear away any coating. And depending on how deep the device goes in the water, the seals won't hold anyway.

@3drob:  Do NOT put your wet phone into alcohol. It can separate the layers of the LCD screen! Rinsing in distilled water and drying out slowly is still the best method.

@ic78man08: The Bheestie bags are effective, but too expensive for me. Putting the device in (uncooked) rice may take a little longer, but still works fine. Or, if you want a free homemade Bheestie bag, keep all of your silica gel packets (do not eat!), dry them in a low oven, and store them in a sealed plastic bag, ready for that inevitibable dunking.

@franklin: Somewhere I have a document from Tektronix on the correct way to hose off the inside of an oscilloscope. I have never had the guts to try it out on my 1960's scope, however!

 

 

 

 



3drob
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Re: Excellent Application!
3drob   1/30/2013 1:00:51 PM
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Offbalance, thanks!  It's good to know NOT to use alcohol on devices with LCD display's.

Battar
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Re: Excellent Application!
Battar   1/30/2013 10:42:46 AM
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Dave, this is an old one.

If perflourinated carbons are hydrophopic,  how will they attach themselves to the cells in you body? Or to put it more simply, if nothing sticks to teflon (another perflourinated compound), how will it stick to you, inside or out? The answer is, health issues arise when the compound breaks down at excessive temperature, which can happen in a frying pan but not in a cellphone.

3drob
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Re: Excellent Application!
3drob   1/30/2013 1:08:12 PM
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Battar, according to your statement, Asbestos is perfectly safe. 

Nano materials do amazing things BECAUSE of their odd (non-intuitive) behavior, so any statement that they are safe is pure, unsubstantiated speculation.  They are already finding bad health effects and environmental concerns for nano materials and the waste produced in their manufacturing.  Perhaps not another "Love Canal", but who knows?

Perhaps an interesting related side question is:  If they are hydrophobic, how do they react to fats and oils (as contained in human skin)?

Jennifer Campbell
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Re: Excellent Application!
Jennifer Campbell   1/30/2013 1:27:36 PM
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This is a great idea - I'm surprised it hasn't come to market sooner. I, for one, could have used this a few years back, when my phone was drowned by the vigorous waves of the Atlantic ocean - blanket too close to the shoreline .... do the math. Of course, it will really be imressive when the technology is made and can be applied to your existing cell phone. Ann, any word from the company on that development?

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   1/31/2013 2:03:23 PM
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Jenn, that would be retrofitting, which we were discussing earlier in the comments. So far, we haven't seen any plans for that, but it sure sounds like a great idea. OTOH, as someone pointed out, those refrigerator-sized machines may be on the pricey side for an operation like Kinko's. And that's an entirely different business model from selling the coating to a company like Motorola. I was expressing more of a wish than a prediction.

NadineJ
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Re: Excellent Application!
NadineJ   1/30/2013 5:38:51 PM
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Yes, Dave Palmer, I agree.  I wasn't suggesting that this process could be marketed as "anti-cancer".  I was putting the idea out there.  It's a market that's waiting for the right product/attention. 

The evidence isn't as weak as those in CE claim though.  I'm sure it's not just cell phones placed in bras that has caused increased breast cancer in very young women.  What I listended to on Pacifca radio was very compelling and gave good evidence that cell phones aren't entirely benign.

But, is there anything that's completely safe today?

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   2/1/2013 2:58:34 PM
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There's a lot of evidence of links between cell phone and other wireless radiation and cancer. There are also lots of studies that conclude the opposite. The subject is highly politicized, and there are way too many studies with radically different research designs to make them easy to compare, or to make this a quick, easy-to-grasp subject. The bottom line is we don't know but there's a possibility, and one that could affect millions of people.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   2/12/2013 5:03:47 PM
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I'm inclined to think that it's highly likely from what I've read, plus for two additional reasons: one is concerned communications engineers talking off record to me about this problem back in the very early days of cell phone design (mid- and late 1990s). The second is the fact that the CTIA managed to get federal legislation passed to make it illegal to complain about/sue cell phone companies based on health reasons.

Charles Murray
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Re: Excellent Application!
Charles Murray   1/29/2013 9:29:30 PM
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Ann, what about immersion of the device (such as in Daryl's toilet scenario)? Can this coating protect against immesion damage?

Larry M
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Re: Excellent Application!
Larry M   1/30/2013 9:20:08 AM
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Immersion damage? A much more interesting result would be if this process were found to be effective against the growth of tin whiskers, , the guaranteed-to-fail manufacturing process using lead-free solder foisted upon us by non-technical do-gooder Europeans.

If this process were found to be effective against the growth of tin whiskers, we could suddenly have phones and cameras that would again last longer than three years and cars that would not suddenly engage in fatal wide-open-throttle acceleration.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   1/30/2013 12:28:13 PM
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Chuck, good question. But how do you define "immersion"? Spilling a cup of coffee on the phone? Dropping it into a sink of dishwater or a toilet? Or just leaving it out in the rain on a table? And for how long? I didn't find any specific descriptions of protection against immersion on the website, but a) all the examples (and Motorola's SplashGuard ads, as well as its name) imply that continual non-immersive exposure to liquid--such as sweat on your hearing aid or splashes of rain on your phone--don't affect protected devices, and b) the coating is said to molecularly bond so it lasts as long as the device does. The exact nature of that molecular bond probably determines the answer.

SparkyWatt
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Re: Excellent Application!
SparkyWatt   1/30/2013 1:35:23 PM
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Something that is molecularly bonded can't be peeled off, but ordinary wear takes the surface off anything.  How many computer keys have you seen that have become smooth and shiny with age?  I am sure that a plastic layer a few nanometers thick is not going to survive any process that takes micrometers off its substrate.  Ordinary wear will take this stuff off in very short order.  The only things that will remain protected are those that are not subject to wear.

Of course, that is much of the inside of any device.

What does this stuff do to battery contacts and pushbuttons?  Is it thin enough to keep its interference to a few milliohms?

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Excellent Application!
Ann R. Thryft   1/30/2013 3:18:13 PM
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This coating is applied via a plasma-enhanced vapor deposition process. Similar processes are used in semiconductor manufacturing.

Charles Murray
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Re: Excellent Application!
Charles Murray   1/30/2013 6:17:15 PM
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I would define immersion as being under water for a few seconds. Dropping it in a bath tub full of water or in the toilet (as one reader described) would be an example. Can this technology withstand that? My guess would be no, because any connection to the outside world would take in water. Right?

Tim
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Re: Excellent Application!
Tim   1/30/2013 9:41:40 PM
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I guess that this is the difference between water resistant and water proof. I have had a few watches that could have benefited from this technology.

jmiller
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Re: Excellent Application!
jmiller   1/30/2013 9:47:40 PM
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I suppose there's a difference between water proof and water resistant.  I know there's a difference between fire proof and fire resistant.  And it has to do with self extinguishing compared to the inability to catch on fire.  In both cases it's intersesting how marketing words sometimes sound similar to what we want, but in the end it's just real close.

Larry M
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Re: Excellent Application!
Larry M   1/30/2013 9:27:15 AM
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Ummm, substantially more expensive than any piece of equipment Kinko's currently has, Maybe one per major city.

And I believe the major components have to be treated prior to assembly for the process to be effective. Given the difficulty of disassembling a cellphone (especially an iPhone, designed to be difficult), this doesn't seem like a starter.

But it might be an interesting device to have in a community "maker shop."

Dave Palmer
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Re: Excellent Application!
Dave Palmer   1/29/2013 3:07:03 PM
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@williamlweaver: Somehow, I doubt that the real-life equipment is exactly as it is portrayed in the video.  For one thing, the "on" button in the video looks too much like an e-stop switch... definitely a safety concern!

But the equipment is anything like this, then setting up a kiosk in a mall to apply this stuff would be a great investment. (Especially if you could manage to locate your kiosk directly outside of Best Buy).

Elizabeth M
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Re: Excellent Application!
Elizabeth M   1/30/2013 4:33:53 AM
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I like the kiosk idea to make any device waterproof...fantastic.

jmiller
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Re: Excellent Application!
jmiller   1/30/2013 9:44:45 PM
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I do too. But Will I still be able to open up the back so I can pull out the battery when it locks up?

Elizabeth M
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It is about time!
Elizabeth M   1/29/2013 2:44:26 PM
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Yes, I have always wondered why computers and devices could be so sophisticated electronically but not be tougher when it comes to their external materials. I always thought if you pay such good money for these devices they should be water proof! Ask me what happens when I spilled a bit of water on my MacBook Pro a couple of years ago and wrangled a $750 fix (new logicboard, trackpad, harddrive and keyboard...new Mac, practically!) out of my AppleCare plan. I still wouldn't exactly go surfing with my mobile phone shoved into my wetsuit, but it would be nice if a bit of liquid on the device didn't kill it or damage it. Interesting story, Ann.

Larry M
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Re: It is about time!
Larry M   1/30/2013 9:23:30 AM
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Actually, it depends on what brand you get. Careful shoppers look at the water-resistant Lenovo products. The keyboards even include special gutters to deflect the water from internal parts. Google and YouTube are your friends here. Some of the techniques have been patented.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: It is about time!
Ann R. Thryft   2/8/2013 1:16:37 PM
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Elizabeth, sounds like you really lucked out there. That's more value than what I got out of MS after a customer service mess, which wasn't inconsiderable: around $400 worth, or more.



apresher
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Phone in the Sink
apresher   1/29/2013 9:28:26 PM
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Given the consumer product nature of cell phones, it seems unlikely that they will withstand submersion in water any time soon. Would be a great thing but probably cost prohibitive.

ic78man08
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Re: Phone in the Sink
ic78man08   1/30/2013 9:14:24 AM
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Or for $20, when your phone is wet, try this:

Bheestie Bags is a revolutionary device that can actually save electronics from water and moisture damage and they just released a brand new larger bag!  Whether it's an accidental spill on your iPad or the device was exposed to moisture - this is the ultimate solution. Just turn off the device, wipe off any visible moisture, place electronic in bag, zip tight and let Bheestie Bag work its magic!  For extreme water exposure, wait 48-72 hours.  The powerful water absorbing beads physically bond and removing the water, proven to be 700 times more effective than home remedies. The bag can last up to a year for everyday use or less if used for extreme soaking. http://www.bheestie.com/Dry_My_Wet_Phone.html

3drob
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Re: Phone in the Sink
3drob   1/30/2013 9:19:22 AM
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ic78man08 - this is not the appropriate venue for commercial adverts.

ic78man08
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Re: Phone in the Sink
ic78man08   1/30/2013 9:25:23 AM
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Sorry 3drob, this was not meant as an ad---I actually tried this on my niece's phone and I meant it to be a reply regarding apresher's comments about the cost prohibition in commercial cell phones---he's right, so only spend the extra money after the fact if your phone gets wet.

Quacker
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And then there is this...
Quacker   1/30/2013 9:24:20 AM
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http://www.neverwet.com/videos-news.php

Mydesign
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Mobile water proofing
Mydesign   1/30/2013 9:47:33 AM
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1 saves
Ann, recently while attending a telecom conference, happened to visit some of the Chinese exhibition stalls. In one of the stall Huawei had kept some Smartphone in a transparent pot having water. They use to call to these mobiles and explain about how it works under the water. I mean about water proofing and how safe the device is in water. They have a plan to introduce the same to market within few months.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Mobile water proofing
Ann R. Thryft   1/31/2013 11:55:27 AM
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Mydesign, that sounds very intriguing. Can you give us links or more info?

Mydesign
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Re: Mobile water proofing
Mydesign   2/5/2013 10:40:16 PM
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1 saves
Ann sorry, I don't have any link. I had seen it in one of the telecom exhibition. I have their brochure and business card, I will check and update you about the company website and product name.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Mobile water proofing
Ann R. Thryft   2/6/2013 12:00:57 PM
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Mydesign, thanks, that would be great. I'd like to find out more.

John E
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Automotive application
John E   1/30/2013 10:08:44 AM
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I'd like to see somthing like this on car windows.  If it would survive long enough, it would be a huge improvment to visibility in the rain.  I currently use RainX, but it needs to be reapplied about once a month.

franklin
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phone in sink
franklin   1/30/2013 10:30:43 AM
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in the sixties (over 60 years ago) we used to clean tektronix scopes by hosing the inside with water. it did not harm the scope.
I have dropped a phone in the toilet 10 years ago. i rinsed it in running water and shook it to dry. didn't seem to harm it.

So what else is new?

eafpres
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Interesting but?
eafpres   1/30/2013 12:50:19 PM
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I looked at the company site.  What I could find are mainly marketing videos; very nicely done but short on details.  There are lots of questions I would have if I were a company considering doing this to my products.  First, I would want to understand the plasma and what the risks of damaging electronics are.  Seems like the potential to either directly create a voltage potential or cause static charge buildup would be a worry.  I would also want to know about the conductivity question--seems too good to be true that you could post-coat a gold plated contact and not change the contact resistance.  

In my experience (I also have family who routinely drops phones in the toilet or bathtup, or lets them soak in 100% humidity in the bathroom until they fritz out) immersion is the real consumer issue, or condensation inside.  Once wet, unless you really dry it out, the continuous flow of current eventually corrodes something and the device fails.  To prove this process avoids that would require validation testing beyond what is shown in the video.

If I were to see test results presented in a more professinal way, I would be more convinced, but as an engineer I have to remain skeptical so far.

D. Sherman
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Re: Interesting but?
D. Sherman   1/30/2013 1:32:32 PM
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I agree with every word of what eafpres wrote. They lost me when they claimed that the coating can never wear off and that it doesn't change the electrical properties of anything. All coatings wear off unless they're extremely hard (e.g. diamaond or SiC), in which case they're hard to deposit, hard to bond, and too brittle for use on even slightly flexible substrates. As for not changing the electrical properties, that means that the coating must "know", based on where it lands, whether it ought to be an insulator or a conductor. That, of course, is impossible.

Furthermore, once moisture gets inside an electronic device, it takes a very long time to get out. That gives it plenty of time to work mischief while it's in there. To really waterproof a camera or cell phone, it's necessary to keep water from getting in. If merely coating the PCBs was sufficient, there are plenty of good conformal coatings that will do that.

My impression is that what happened here is some chemist developed a neat way to put thin hydrophobic coatings on lots of materials, and then let his marketing guy loose with the idea. The marketing guy thought to himself "what's a large market of products that are familiar to the general public that could benefit from waterproofing?", and of course his answer was "cell phones". Unfortunately he knows nothing about electronics or even about manufacturing processes.

yalc
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Waterproofing for Existing Devices
yalc   1/30/2013 2:55:48 PM
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This process is already available for existing devices.  See http://www.popsci.com/bown/2012/product/liquipel or liquipel.com.  I'm not affiliated.

apresher
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Drop your Phone in the Sink
apresher   1/31/2013 9:13:21 AM
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Good points on water proof versus water resistant.  Dropping your phone in the sink creates a different technical problem that running through a brief rainstorm.

Charles Murray
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Re: Drop your Phone in the Sink
Charles Murray   1/31/2013 7:14:32 PM
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I had to go to the Internet (uh-oh) to find out the difference between waterproof and water-resistant. The prevailing logic seems to be that a waterproof product prevents water from coming in at all, even when submerged (think of a diving watch). Water resistant (here's wher the definition seems to get fuzzy) describes the ability to repel water, up to a point. Given those descriptions, I would assume this material makes the phone water-resistant.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Drop your Phone in the Sink
Ann R. Thryft   2/1/2013 11:50:33 AM
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Chuck, that's my understanding of the definitions, also. That's why I queried the use of the term "immersion." How complete the "immersion" is, and how long it takes place, are key. I agree, this coating appears to make the item water resistant.

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