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Superbattery: The Next Great Triumph of Engineering

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soessex
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Iron
Re: Battery technology
soessex   1/31/2012 10:20:21 AM
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To GlennA:

!. Of significant importance, the flywheel has little velocity when not in use and when in use the vehicle is rolling to a stop.

2. The 100 pound weight was only selected for purposes of comparison with vehicle weight and could be much smaller as KE=1/2 MV^2.

3. Please investigate Porsche, F-1 and other KERS technology as flywheel speed above 40K are being utilized with very small flywheels.

Kevin
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Kevin   2/9/2012 2:03:14 PM
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Jerry,

Gotta love your enthusiasm, but you need to do more research before spewing wildly incorrect specs.  The statement "In vehicles the eff engine of choice by a very long ways is E drive as in the car gets 20-65% of the fuel's energy to the road VS 35% eff ICE's that only get 7% of their fuel to the road because they almost  never run at eff levels, wasting most of their energy. This is why I get 250-600mpg equivalent in my EV's vs 40-50mpg in similat ICE's." is nonsense.

The best ICE's are ~38% efficient (Prius, etc.) and in hybrid cars the engine is kept near the efficiency sweet-spot most of the time.  EV's "MPGe" comparison is complicated and there is much mis-information out there.  The average coal power-plant is approx. 32% efficient, and loses 7% for transmission loss, and then the EV has losses with battery charging / discharging / motor control and electric motor.  Net-net, an EV actually uses MORE energy (from the power plant) than an efficient fuel-burning car burns as chemical energy (as oil).  100% fact.

Now, to be fair - the grid is powered by various sources, varying by location and only ~50% Coal overall, 20% Natural Gas.  The higher percentage the grid is powered by renewables, the more the "green" benefits of EV's.  However, with today's grid there is basically ZERO energy benefit (actually negative benefit) on average, except that we shift from burning oil to mainly burning Coal + Natural Gas.

The MPGe of EV's, if calculated scientifically and honestly would be about 1/3 of the EPA sticker value.  In other words, the LEAF's 99 MPGe would actually be ~33 if related to how much fossil fuel it uses.  Your 250-600 MPGe figures are pure fantasy...

Regarding Superbatteries - I agree with some other posters that the best focus (near-term) would be buffering wind and solar power to the grid, NOT automobiles.  Autos are one of the most challenging applications imaginable, but a fixed power grid buffering installation could be large, heavy, have high initial cost and the utilities would be willing to amortize costs over decades. 

For autos, the best short-term solution is efficient conventional ICE's and hybrids, medium-term would be to create a renewable synthesized fuel that can take gasoline's place.  For urban cars, plug-in hybrids might make sense, but for most people the extra battery capacity is just a waste of money vs. conventional hybrids.  In other words - the VOLT would be more practical if it had a battery of half the capacity and lower cost and weight, and a MORE efficient gas engine - more like the Prius. 

Kevin

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/9/2012 5:16:34 PM
NO RATINGS
 

   Kevin, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

  I stand by my numbers and EPA agrees with them as do most honest others.  where are you wrong? Let's count the ways.

 Sorry but Prii's are no where near 38% eff, about 10% in real life.  And it almost never runs in it's eff range even as a hybrid.

I was talking about power to the road. Real eff for ICE is very bad because just idling either at a light, coasting, braking all the while an ICE uses 5-10hp just to turn the engine over.  I can go 70mph on that much power in my 2 seat sportwagom EV.  Next the transmission weight, 5% loss.  Since an ICE is only eff at 75% plus power, it rarely hits that.  Most of the time running it's making none to 15hp which is only 10% or less eff. If you can't understand that you have problems.

Coal plants are dropping like flies with about 100 annouced closures over the last few months because simply they kill people with 30k/yr deaths in the US from them.  Presently we use about 43% coal and dropping fast.  By 5 yrs when any number of EV's are out there, only the most ef, c;lean coal will be left and that under 25% of US grid.

Personally I'm about to produce a 2kw windgen that can power an eff 1000sq' home and a light EV or 2.  This installed will be about $5k and give power for 50 yrs.  PV panels are now only $1.5k/kwhr or less retail, sunelec.com, so for about $1k I can charge my EV's for 25 yrs.

And it's being replaced by cogen NG units, 55-60% eff and RE, 100% eff most people consider.   Most EV'ers use RE either making their own or buying it. 

So I drive to town for $.15  and you can keep wasting your money if you want but stop spreading such bad misinformation.  Just google would have turned up your grid numbers being so wrong.

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/9/2012 5:30:38 PM
NO RATINGS
 

    I forgot the EV numbers.    An EV motor/controller is about 80-90% eff and only uses power when needed. It's only losses are bearings, unlike an ICE running it's cams, water/oil pumps, valves, alt, etc

  Since it needs no transmission no losses there. Battery charging is about 90% with 2-4% line losses, not 7% and the rest charger losses

  So it comes to power sources.

  RE at 100% eff -15% motor/controller-5% charging so about 75-80% eff to the diff. 

Old coal at 30% eff-25% so EV 22.5% eff

NG cogen 60% eff so  EV 45% eff

 Diff and wheels are about 20% losses but common with ICE.

I design, build both electric, wind and ICE vehicles for 40 yrs . What's your background?

Kevin
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Kevin   2/9/2012 6:24:50 PM
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Jerry,

This isn't about my qualifications, but since you asked: I've built my share of performance engines and designed a lot of systems with electric motors too.  I'm both a degreed ME and EE and am deeply interested and knowledgable about alternative energy.  Don't get me wrong - I am 100% for getting us off of fossil fuels and promoting renewable energy.  In fact, that is WHY I have researched these issues quite extensively, and found that reality is quite different than what the popular media and EV zealots would like it to be.

So...to clarify my position - I am NOT anti-EV, but I am pro-truth and pro-reality.  Every factoid in my prior statements is completely true and verifiable, whether you are open-minded enough to learn about it or not.  You are being very loose and fast with the spec's you are mentioning - please see if you feel the same way after ANALYSING the facts.

Here's a smattering of some info that might get you started down the road to understanding these issues more completely.  Hopefully you can see that I'm not distorting anything, just pointing out reality.  I make no apology if reality does not align with preconceived notions.

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2011/04/24/toyota-targets-45-thermal-efficiency-for-engines-in-next-gen-hy/

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/2.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption


http://www.designnews.com/messages.asp?piddl_msgthreadid=241083&piddl_msgid=536744#msg_536744

One thing we probably all can agree on is that we will eventually need to get off of fossil fuels, and it would be better to start earlier rather than later.  However, I believe EV's are a "head fake" and have little to do with this, since ~70% of power generation today in the USA (higher in most other countries except for France) comes from burning fossil fuels. 

I think it is more practical to put our efforts and dollars into efficiency and converting the power grid to renewable sources and creating a renewable fuel to replace gasoline.  Once the grid is mainly renewable based, EV's make more sense (how many decades for that to happen?)  and if the renewable car fuel is created - there would then be no NEED for EV's with all of the cost / range issues, etc. that they have, and no additional burden on the grid.

Just my informed opinion.  Regards,

Kevin


Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/10/2012 5:26:34 AM
NO RATINGS
 

          You should sue your schools as they didn't teach you basic reasoning skils. 

          Since you built performance engines what was their SFC in lbs/hphr at 2000rpm outputing 10hp as a car at 55mph is likely to do?  What about while idling? Notice anything?  You can only use an engine eff at acceleration which normally is only a % or 2 of engine running time. No? Most driving is using under 10hp to the road and if using 10hp just to turn over the engine from friction, etc, what is the SFC/road hp?

          You can provide links to mpg sites all you want and I agree with what  they say on eff in a constant run engine at peak eff.  Sadly you seem to be incapable of understanding part throttle eff in real life which is FAR different and as you say you want, reality.

           I noticed you didn't put any links to FF grid % as you probably know by now I'm right on it.  I get daily updates on all grid, oil, coal, NG, EV, Auto, etc news, info from industry sources  You need to be up to date as it's changing very fast for the grid.

            As for using coal powered EV's in 1 yr the dirty, ineff coal plants will be gone or converted to biomass of NG, even with power from them EV's make less pollution and CO2 than similar ICE's by a good amount.  From RE or NG it's many times better EPA, website. And as I said before, most EV buyers also make or buy RE.

            EPA also shows eff and well to road total energy for each fuel of all types both car and grid.  But basic eff knowledge allows one to do ones own math. 

           Your misinformation on EV mpge is just plain wrong as is the way EPA counts it in their mileage rates.  

            I'm more into eff than EV's. Just EV's is by far the most eff way to transport people.

             And if my EV isn't eff then why does it only cost me $.005/mile for fuel? How much does your example Prius use?  Why?  Things you need to reseach before you spout such misinfo.  Someone who was not anti-ev would.

             I joined this list because I wanted to learn more from expert designers, engineers yet I find far more ignorance by supposed  EE's-ME's and others.    It seems I have to teach others just basic physics which with my 8th grade education shouldn't be!!         

Kevin
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Kevin   2/10/2012 12:01:53 PM
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Now play nice...Jerry.  One last time:

1.  7% transmission & distribution loss in the power grid (page 3):  http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/seitp202.nsf/c71c66c1f02e6575c125711f004660e6/64cee3203250d1b7c12572c8003b2b48/$FILE/Energy+efficiency+in+the+power+grid.pdf

2.  One of the big benefits of hybrids is that they can use the electric motor to keep the gas engine running near peak efficiency most of the time.  This is in addition to regenerative braking and start/stop capability for the engine too.  Your technobabble is way off in the weeds.

3.  "in 1 yr the dirty, ineff coal plants will be gone or converted to biomass of NG".  Yeah...and we will have a 13,000 person moon colony by Newt Gingrich's 2nd term as president !

4.  Basically (in 8th grader's math): The EPA's MPGe equates 34 KWh of power out of the plug to 1 gallon of gas.  While this is indeed equal to the chemical energy of this amount of gas, it took about 3 times that much fuel energy (at the power plant) to create that much electricity.  If we could "mine" electrons directly, this might be a valid method...but not in this world. 

5.  I agree - Electricity is relatively cheap, mainly because of subsidies and the fact that Coal and Natural Gas is cheaper than Oil.  If we all changed to EV's, electricity prices would go up (supply-and-demand) and also it is only a matter of time until those fossil fuels get more scarce too.  Even with the relatively low cost of electricity, it takes at least 10-15 years to "break even" financially with an EV vs. efficient ICE car.  For example, the ~$20K price premium for a Volt would buy over 5000 gallons of gas.  At 40 MPG for the gas car, this is 200,000 miles to break even with the Volt, even with ZERO cost electricity!  You could also spend an additional $30K for a rooftop photovoltaic system to charge you EV - and have "free" electricity...but you'll probably never recoup that investment before the EV is worn out.

Anyway, it's clear that this conversation is not going anywhere with you.  The article's point (and I must say -  Charles Murray's articles are always great!) was about Super Batteries.  Any my point was - don't bother with putting these into EV's....let's put this technology into helping the grid become more "green" by buffering Solar and Wind generation.

Kevin

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/10/2012 3:52:20 PM
NO RATINGS
 

           Just because EPA rates something their way doesn't effect real facts.  You say 34kwhr in a gal of gas which is true. 

            But 34kwhr of RE also has it and can be directly used in an EV. And as I said, most EV people use RE as I do.

           Let's actually calculate the numbers even you might be able to understand. The beauty of doing it right is it can be done different ways.  So let's say generation averages about 40% now including losses.   So 40% of 34kwhr is about 14kwhr.  Now my EV's use 50 and 100wthrs/mile so that is about 280 and 140 mpge from the grid and 680 and 340 mpge from 100% eff RE. No?

              Going cost wise grid 14kwhrs is about $1.40 which is also the US average.  So I get 340 miles from that is $.0041/mile.  A Prius gets $.07/mile for gasoline. Now how much more eff is that?  17x's cost wise!!  Energy wise about 3-6x's depending on electric source as I said in the first place.

             Nor did I mention the 3kwhrs needed just to refine the gal of gas which runs my EV 30-60 miles!! 

             I have extremely light, eff 2 seat EV's I admit, a Harley size trike and an all composite body/chassis 2 seat spotswagon stronger than a steel one. Though both a Karman Ghia EV and the EV-1 EV 2000lb Impact prototype got 100wthrs/mile too.  The 3000lb   production EV1 got 175wthrs/mile on lead batteries so not that out of line.

           So be a person that gets screwed every time they fill up with gas and support oil dictaors and terrorists if you want. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank as my EV's sell out as fast as I build them.

Kevin
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Kevin   2/10/2012 5:24:04 PM
NO RATINGS
Truly for the last time...'cause it's like shooting catfish in a bucket:

1.  Your efficiency math is hopelessly wrong.  I know you don't want to be confused by "facts" anyway, so we'll just leave it at that.  Maybe you have an engineer friend who can help...

2.  Here's a good article on relative operating costs of EV's vs. a Prius.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

If you do the calculations, you'll see that the financial "break even" point for a LEAF vs. PRIUS (using the reasonable assumptions in the article) is over 170,000 miles.  For a VOLT (in EV mode) vs. a PRIUS, it's over 350,000 miles! 

3.  The Watt-Hour/mile usage will, of course vary by speed and accessory use.  Using the std. EPA driving cycle, the LEAF uses 316 WH/mi, the VOLT (in EV mode) uses 340.  The GM EV1 ranges from 220 to 330 (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/fsev/sce_sum/ev1_panpba.pdf )

4.  Your WH/mi figure are not credible, at least not at highway speeds.

5.  Using your own data (online) for the FREEDOM EV with twelve 6V, 225 AH lead-acid batteries and supposedly 90 miles range @ 60 MPH (questionable) this is 180 WH/mi.  Do you really think it is more sophisticated than a LEAF or VOLT or EV1 ?  Like I said - gotta love your enthusiasm  http://www.evalbum.com/168   .

Best wishes with selling those things...

Kevin

 

Jerry dycus
User Rank
Gold
Re: Redistribution of Energy Production
Jerry dycus   2/11/2012 12:43:29 AM
NO RATINGS
 

  Math is math. You just don't understand part throttle eff do you. Look it up. Did you look at the EPA website?

  Note I said the EV-1 lead version, not the NiMh version which wasted much power charging from bad battery design.

Nor did I say producion EVs available are the solution as lightweight commuter. town car is best until battery prices drop.  I said my solution the GM UltraLite.

And not complicated with a $1200 battery pack in a 550lb before battery aero vehicle has 25% of the drag a steel car would.  Such a easy 100 mile range EV could be mass produced for $15k or less.  EV's have used this well for 100 yrs in forklift tech.

So you found my first EV from 16 yrs ago. Good for you. What you see is after it was rear ended at 25 mph and totaled the compact car hitting me.  It cost me only $40 to repair mine.  While it wasn't great looking, it worked well, the women loved it and  cost about 2 tanks of gas/yr to drive.  How much does your car cost to own?

I'll be selling FreedomEV's and some custom ones.  I have customers waiting as I finish, test them before I sell any.

The EPA cycle is not well set up to rate EV's and hybrids or gas, diesel either most experts agree.  My numbers show that.

That's it for me.  I'll remember you as I pass gas stations and you can thiink of me as you pour your money down your tank.

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