HOME  |  NEWS  |  BLOGS  |  MESSAGES  |  FEATURES  |  VIDEOS  |  WEBINARS  |  INDUSTRIES  |  FOCUS ON FUNDAMENTALS
  |  REGISTER  |  LOGIN  |  HELP
Blogs
Sherlock Ohms

Chasing Down an Errant Engine Light

Page 1 / 2 Next >
View Comments: Threaded|Newest First|Oldest First
didymus7
User Rank
Platinum
Excellent example of troubleshooting
didymus7   3/12/2014 9:08:18 AM
NO RATINGS
David Agans' excellent book 'Debugging' has rule #1:  Understand the System.  Here, understanding the system was paramount to solving the problem.  Mark Hicks displays all the necessary skills to track down the problem.

My experience has been that most technicians in dealer's service centers are '6 week wonders'.  They are given a couple of weeks of training and then flung into jobs without any mentoring, or, in most cases, any understanding of how to find the cause of a problem.  Here the dealer doesn't come close to finding the problem, when, by any measure, they should have been the final authority.

jlawton
User Rank
Gold
Re: Excellent example of troubleshooting
jlawton   3/12/2014 10:00:53 AM
Of course it's excellent troubleshooting. It's also an excellent demonstration of the weaknesses of the diagnostic system as it exists, since these codes are almost completely "devoid of context" so the service technician has to run movies and all these additional processes to try and extract the correct information, provided he's even trained well enough to know BOTH what to look for and how to find it! It's also absolutely disgusting that the laws in the state I live in will deprive the car owner of the ability to register his vehicle if this code is inclined to appear during smog testing, and the "punishment" for owning the misbehaving vehicle is to pay the $65/hour or more shop rate until either the heavens open up and disgorge infinite wisdom on the shop technician, or until the owner loses his patience with both the cash drain and the loss of his basic transportation, and goes down the street to trade his nearly-perfect vehicle for an entirely new set of problems! And the system complexity required to achieve the ever-increasing utopic CAFE rate goes up each year because the owners of these vehicles with their "evil" carbon-fuel-consuming, carbon-dioxide-"pollutant"-emitting internal-combustion engines simply refuse to trade them in on electric vehicles that run on energy supplied by wind and solar power that doesn't exist, isn't economically feasible and never will be, but you'll never convince the tree-hugging utopian liberal politicians who pass these laws because the vehicles that provide THEIR transportation have been chauffered for them for decades - most likely at the taxpayers' expense too! (I can't help thinking if these folks weren't such total "deadhead ideologues" the condition in question would be provided as simply "warning status" and allow us to just get on with our lives, but if I've learned NOTHING else it's that these pampered elites will never allow reality IN ANY FORM to distract their utopian vision, provided as it is at OUR expense rather than theirs!)

Amclaussen
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Excellent example of troubleshooting
Amclaussen   5/28/2014 1:47:39 PM
Well said...

I call them "Eco-Illogical" politicians. Their pride resides in their enormous capacity to inflict more damage than they can prevent (if any). Most of them pululate in European countries, have caused much damage as they like to prohibit a lot of things, all "in the name of the ecology". Take the damn prohibition on incandescent lightbulbs to increase the sales of their favorite replacement: the Compact Fluoroescent Lightbulb, that causes more ecological damage as those contain sizable quantities of mercury (convenently hidden from public knowledge, as mercury de-contamination of a single room is very expensive...). They also perform poorly when connected to dimmers, or placed inside non ventilated enclosures; they also produce a lot of contaminant garbage when their shorter than promised life ends up, and demand more valuable materials to be fabricated. Or look at the much increased failure rate of all kind of electronic devices that now must use "lead-free" solder, again producing much more electronic garbage than when industry used old reliable Tin-lead solders. I've seen more than enough cars displaying false "check-engine" troubles that simply do not exist and the vehicle still perfectly meets its emissions, frequently at levels well below the legal limits. It is more of a justification to show overly "green" people and tree-huggers that they are working hard to "save" the planet. Many measures impossed by those arrogant politicians are truly counter-productive, like the badly under-used bus lanes that only are traveled by "ecological" buses less than 5% of the time, but prevent common drivers to use them, which produces terrible traffic congestion and heavily increases the total emissions, a complete non-sense!.  Frequently, some cars manufacturers give some of their electric models to these corrupt politicians, which become ardent proposers of that technology, and then start to lie to people about the real total emissions from their whole life-cycle, often completely ignoring the emissions produced during manufacturing, disposing of and recycling of batteries, which falsely make their use as a completely "Zero Emissions vehycles" which is false of course. And the recent prohibition directed at one automaker from using a proven refrigerant in order to impose a newer "greener" one that resulted in more serious risk of fire for the vehycle occupants... all in the name of ecology!

daveagans
User Rank
Iron
Re: Excellent example of troubleshooting
daveagans   3/12/2014 7:47:29 PM
NO RATINGS
2 saves
Actually, this is a fine example of following all 9 rules in my book Debugging. Mark (1) Understands the System (clearly!), (2) Makes it Fail (with test drives), (3) Quits Thinking and Looks (by recording a movie), (4) Divides and Conquers (by noting that the engine runs fine and thus "ruling out the obvious" engine component issues), (5) Changes One Thing at a Time (by test-driving the vehicle cold like it was during the reported failure), (6) Kept an Audit Trail (actually, the car did this with the freeze-frame at the times of the failures), (7) Checked the Plug (by making sure that both sensors saw the O2 spike, he proved that neither of the sensors was blinking out), (8) Got a Fresh View (by doing research and discovering the air injector), and (9) He Did Fix It, So It Was Fixed (sort of -- he had every reason to believe he found the cause, and the car, which consistently failed before, now consistently runs. This is one of those cases where putting the old part back in and seeing it fail would be overkill.)

It has been my experience that good debuggers/troubleshooters inherently follow *all* nine rules, consistently. And as described in the war stories in my book, ignoring even one rule often results in long, fruitless debugging efforts.

Dave Agans

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
William K.   3/12/2014 10:43:54 AM
NO RATINGS
Interesting post and quite an indication of how only knowledge plus understanding can provide good troubleshooting. It also points out how incredibly complex engine control systems have become in the constant effort to run within ever tightening emissions standards. It does demonstrate all of the problems that arise with a slightly inadequate engine disgnostics program. Justadding a timer to the limits checking loop would have prevented the problem of th false indication.

bob from maine
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
bob from maine   3/12/2014 12:45:50 PM
NO RATINGS
I'm impressed! I wonder what diagnostic instrument permits that level of analysis. I've watched dealers amass thousands of dollars of customer debt trying to troubleshoot an intermittent problem and I've never seen a scanner or analyzer with pre/post trigger storage capability of that depth. I have done some CAN buss analysis of other systems and am truly amazed at the comlexity of modern automobiles. Most mechanics have a good basic understanding of how an engine management system works but the described level of analysis is way beyond anything I've ever seen taught at any major marque training session or ASE accredited school. Nice article.

GTOlover
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
GTOlover   3/12/2014 1:32:26 PM
NO RATINGS
I cannot speak directly to the tools that this technician used, but as a shade tree mechanic, I have used my laptop with correct software and cables to trooubleshoot a 1993 Suburban problem. I have even used my laptop to run diagnostics on a 1984 Oldmobile. Assuming that the newer vehicles can output even more realtime data, the dealer should have the software and cables to properly monitor engine management parameters in realtime! The issue is probably training. And as you point out, this is not well covered in ASE classes!

jlawton
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jlawton   3/12/2014 1:57:08 PM
NO RATINGS
GTOlover, your observation is interesting because both of the vehicles you mention are pre-OBD-II (happened in model year '96) so you clearly have experience with "company proprietary" interface software. I'm not expert in this field but certain brands (GM certainly among them) have made a bit of a "profit center" by intentionally "dunbing down" the so-called "public" interface and requiring GM-licensed tools to do the REAL diagnosis (and I recalll GM has been known to charge $50K/yr as an upfront "license fee" to anyone who even wanted to build diagnostic tools that could be used with GM vehicles). Also this problem is a classic ezample of a situation where a simple "code reader" isn't enough to resolve the issue, but it COULD have been if a code had been provided to "tie down" the problem a little better. I know there are many good reasons to justify the use of "proprietary tools" to assist in automotive troubleshooting, but the notion that in order to just keep my vehicle "on the road" if I don't have 100% confidence in my local dealer, I might need to consider the purchase of several thousand dollars' worth of proprietary "diagnostic tools" (which will only retain their value for a few model years anyway, not even long enough for ME to get full value out of them let alone sell them to recoup the price) hardly does much to endear me to the auto brands that employ this kind of strategy.

GTOlover
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
GTOlover   3/12/2014 2:02:04 PM
NO RATINGS
Not to be a tinfoil hat conspirator, but I believe the OBD specdifications were developed by the automakers as a means to enslave the auto-owner to the dealerships!

Totally agree jlawton, big government and crony businesses make good "legal" thieves for the little guys.

a2
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
a2   3/13/2014 1:55:02 AM
NO RATINGS
@GTOlover: Yes indeed and the issue is when its being used to cater other industries as well. I think the best would be to have a customized model where you can drag and drop based on the requirement. Anyway still it will not suit the exact requirement but definitely will be much more user friendly.

bob from maine
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
bob from maine   3/13/2014 11:12:28 AM
NO RATINGS
I thought the OBD programs were mandated by the Government. I do know that many manufacturers have proprietary software to enhance the 'normal' OBD diagnostics. I do have a fairly decent scanner and it does not have the memory to capture a significant time window BEFORE and AFTER a triggering event. Most scanners offer either a fault tree starting with a specific code, or they offer an off-line search with a fault-tree: neither of these would permit the detailed analysis described. At $100/hour with mechanics getting paid based on a flat-rate book, there is no incentive for the mechanics to troubleshoot. A good mechanic can beat the 'book' by 3 or 4 to 1, so like a lawyer, can actually bill a hundred hours in a 40 hour week - no time in that schedule for detailed troubleshooting. Intermittent problems are the bane of a mechanics life - often call-backs must be performed at no cost to the customer unless it can be shown to be the service writers misdiagnosis or something.

GTOlover
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
GTOlover   3/13/2014 12:43:46 PM
NO RATINGS
bob, you are technically correct.

http://www.epa.gov/obd/index.htm

It was SAE and ISO the standardized a lot of the physical and codes used in modern vehicles. What was interesting about this debug was the tools used by this technician was not the simple parts store code reader. The idea of reading codes and diagnosis of a problem would seem to part and parcel for the dealership. But time and time again, I read of stories of people going to the dealer getting soaked for some 'mechanic' to swap out enough parts until the problem goes away. It matters little if they continually beat the standard rate if the part they replace was not the faulty component!

And if this is warranty work, how is this helping the engineers from identifying components that need to be re-designed for more robustness? All the parts seem to be junk if the tech at the dealer is changing everything they can think of to make the light go away. Now if an engineer got this troubleshooting report, he could look at revising the code (as suggested by others) or visit the air valve solenoid to see why it might be sticky.

Cabe Atwell
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
Cabe Atwell   3/26/2014 4:42:48 PM
NO RATINGS
Another great piece! I find it amazing as well, that such a short post brings about a heated debate.

Fibber
User Rank
Iron
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
Fibber   4/4/2014 12:49:18 PM
NO RATINGS
A couple of things come to mind after reading this.  The author clearly understands the complex system.  Bravo.  The OBD-II standard dictates that we shall have clean air, and a bunch of systems that must be monitored for compliance.  Exactly how the auto maker chooses to attain this is largely up to them.  The current standard dates to 1994, (first implemented around 1996) and has a unified list of a few hundred codes.  20 years later auto manufactures have thousands more proprietary codes as they monitor things never dreamed of back then.  It's really time for OBD-III. 

1) Shortly after the fuel system goes into closed loop, at a steady state speed and when other conditions are met the Catalytic Efficiency Test is conducted.  On my cars this is typically around the timeframe you called out – 8 minutes after a cold start.   At that time the mixture is by program intentionally cycled rich for a period and then lean.  The front A/F sensor is ignored, and the rear sensor monitored to see if the cat bed can hold enough oxygen to maintain clean exhaust.  If it fails two successive drive cycles you get a P0420.  While reading your description the first thing that came to mind was that the ECM wasn't ignoring the feedback of the front (A/F) sensor and was flagging the lean output as a problem. 

2) Good catch on the air pump!  I understand the use of air injection to increase the oxygen content in the exhaust stream and speed the reaction driven heating of the catalyst bed.  This is particularly important during the open loop operation when the engine is cold.  But putting it prior to the A/F (the air fuel upper oxygen sensor) really is a flawed design.  Once the engine goes into closed loop operation (the mixture is solely regulated by that sensor) there shouldn't be anything that it could ever see other than combustion chamber exhaust output – under any circumstances.  Yes, I know it's always been done this way, relying on the solenoid valve as an engineering control to prevent this conflict. But there's certainly a better layout.

jhmumford
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jhmumford   3/12/2014 3:48:14 PM
NO RATINGS
So, jlawton... in your earlier post, you were ranting against regulations that make vehicles more complicated and difficult to diagnose, as well as less reliable, but now you're admitting that the REAL problem is that the automakers have found a way to make diagnostics into a profit center by making it difficult for anyone but the dealer to diagnose problems.  Of course, in the given scenario the dealer had, without success, "fixed" the car without actually fixing the problem.  I have to admit that companies often try to keep some information proprietary so you are forced to use their dealers' service departments, but in this case it looks like the engineers simply didn't have the time to document all the possible cases that could result in the error code; the dealer simply replaced the most likely parts based on the engineering guestimate of the most likely failure modes. 

I wonder if the customer had returned the vehicle to the dealer a couple more times they would eventually have found the problem. This is why extended warranties are necessary these days; they force the dealer to actually fix the problem, and usually provide a loaner while they do it.

Of course the real problem is the burning of dirty fossil fuels to transport people around, when other alternatives exist, but I don't want to get into a rant or a flame war.

jlawton
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jlawton   3/12/2014 6:22:02 PM
NO RATINGS
jhmumford, I don't see an inconsistency. There ARE too many regulations and they DO drive up the cost of repairs, and the auto companies and their expensive proprietary diagnostic equipment ALSO make it too expensive to fix automobiles. There's no "single villain" because my thought processes are not driven by a preconceived ideology, as yours is obviously driven by the notion that carbon-based fuels and the companies that make profits on them are the sole cause of all our transportation and energy problems, and therefore all our government policies MUST be driven by an agenda to make them obsolete and/or prohibitively expensive. Of course those kinds of policy decisions could only be supported by an "elite class" who can afford the cost of fuel for transportation, whatever it may rise to, probably because they have a scheme to make someone else pay for it anyway, and then get everyone else to "feel guilty for helping destroy the planet" if they don't agree to follow along in your selfish games.

Oops, is that the "flame war" you didn't want to start?

jhmumford
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jhmumford   3/12/2014 7:04:10 PM
NO RATINGS
What's wrong with regulations if they make the world a safer place?  I remember as a child before the Clean Air Act that there were days that the smog in LA was so bad that you couldn't see 100 yards through the haze and breathing was painful and difficult.  Since then, the air has become much cleaner and more breathable, but why burn fossil fuels at all when wind, solar and ocean wave/tidal generation could replace most of the electricity needed to power electric vehicles that are perfectly suitable for 95% of commuters (e.g the Nissan Leaf)?  Of course, a lot of that electricity is currently generated by burning fossil fuels, so we need to build the infrastructure to generate and distribute more of our electricity and the increased demand that electric vehicles will create, but market forces are already bringing about some of the change, and moderate subsidies on the installation of solar/wind/ocean generation by the federal government could easily make (are already making)  those technologies competitive. 

Government policies are not making fossil fuels obsolete; they are already obsolete but because our infrastructure (and trillions of dollars of profit) are at stake, the fossil fuel industry is fighting tooth and nail to prevent the inevitable.  But fossil fuels cause immense damage to our health, infrastructure and environment, so calling them "inexpensive" is not correct.  Even if you were to power vehicles by burning fossil fuels, it is much more efficient to burn them in a large-scale commercial plant and distribute the energy as electricity to vehicles; the widely varying conditions under which vehicles operate makes clean, efficient combustion much more complicated that in a stationary generating plant. 

Finally, I'm an engineer; I'm not driven by ideology but by evidence of what is the most efficient way of doing things, taking into account the totality of costs including externalities.

Come into the 21st century.  There's nothing to be afraid of.

jlawton
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jlawton   3/12/2014 7:27:30 PM
Yup, you're a "toe tag" liberal, totally refuse to answer the issues as stated as if they were "beneath" you. You guys wouldn't have a chance if the mental level of the average voter nowadays weren't such that they think "The Daily Show" and "Coast to Coast AM" are NEWS PROGRAMS. And thinking that in order to get us over to this "shortstop" to socialized medicine (at these HIDEOUS price points for insurance policies!) you don't even need a website that works, you just need a few decent commercials and a good sales campaign?? Good luck with that ideological "echo chamber" after the electorate STOPS behaving like the cast of one of these popular zombie programs - like, say, this November...

jhmumford
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jhmumford   3/12/2014 7:33:36 PM
NO RATINGS
I'M JUST A CRAZY OLD COOT WHO WATCHES FOX NEWS ALL DAY AND BELIEVES EVERYTHING THE OIL COMPANIES TELL ME ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE BEING A HOAX BECAUSE I CAN'T ADMIT THAT I'M WRONG AND I THINK OLD CARS THAT GO REALLY FAST AND DESTROY THE EARTH ARE GREAT BECAUSE HALF A CENTURY AGO THEY HELPED ME PICK UP CHICKS, OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I TELL MYSELF BECAUSE MY EGO DEMANDS IT AND I CAN'T CHANGE MY OPINIONS BECAUSE THE GUMMN'T IS EVIL BECAUSE OBAMA!!!!!

jlawton
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jlawton   3/12/2014 7:56:09 PM
I guess you even lied about trying to avoid "flame wars", at least I don't type in all caps because I can't get anyone to listen to me...

jhmumford
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
jhmumford   3/12/2014 8:17:08 PM
NO RATINGS
You're the one that made it political.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
William K.   3/12/2014 9:29:34 PM
NO RATINGS
The diagnostic component that enabled finding that problem was the service persons MOND, coupled with an excellent understanding of how the system functioned and how it was supposed to function. Without that understanding the best a service person can do is change parts based on the diagnostics in some service manual. Some manuals are very good, some are nearly worthless.

a2
User Rank
Gold
Re: Very good diagnostics, lots of effort.
a2   3/13/2014 1:56:47 AM
NO RATINGS
@William: Exactly, and that is when the problem occurs. You do need to get the information documented properly. If not the same kind of issues will rise and the next generation of the users will suffer. 

lynnbr2
User Rank
Iron
Error Loops
lynnbr2   3/12/2014 12:46:20 PM
NO RATINGS
This article also displays the typical "time crunch" design engineers are under to complete their projects. Usually too little time is spent on error loops, most of the time is spent verifing the system works properly within its range of "normal" conditions - when things are actually normal.

There could have been a diagnostic manual that explained that the air injection circuit could cause a O2 lean condition, but no, not enough time to document that. So, the maintenance guys suffer, but the sales guys are happy....

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
I CAN'T FIND IT!
OLD_CURMUDGEON   4/3/2014 8:13:50 AM
NO RATINGS
 

Does anyone know where the OBD II plug is on my 1957 Chevy Bel Air w/ the 283 cu in engine?  I've looked all around under the hood.  I even looked in the glove compartment & I couldn't find anything there either.

cwoodhouse
User Rank
Silver
Re: I CAN'T FIND IT!
cwoodhouse   4/23/2014 3:59:56 PM
NO RATINGS
Ha Ha!

OLD_CURMUDGEON
User Rank
Platinum
Re: I CAN'T FIND IT!
OLD_CURMUDGEON   4/24/2014 8:34:52 AM
NO RATINGS
The main reason I made that comment was because I had the blog set for THREADED mode, and I read the lengthy discussion between two of the bloggers that quickly degenerated into a political argument without due cause as far as I'm concerned.  There are forums for technical discussions & exchanges of ideas, AND there are forums for political debate.  But, I don't believe these lines have to cross, especially in this DESIGN NEWS arena.

dnason@kicmail.com
User Rank
Iron
You may have solved my problem!
dnason@kicmail.com   4/23/2014 4:51:36 PM
NO RATINGS
Generally a 171/173 code combination (lean bank 1/lean bank 2) code indicates a vacuum leak as it did on my wifes 2004 and was solvable with a new o-ring.

Since buying a 1996 motorhome last summer with a Ford E-360 chassis we have had a random pair of these codes with no symptoms and taking anywhere from 20-200+ miles before it triggers. When we first looked at the vehicle the light was set but the seller got it to pass smog by fixing something that was 'sticking' but I never found out what it was. After reading your post, I am going to stop looking for vacuum leaks and focus on the smog solenoids because maybe that's the problem.

Thanks for the great idea!

warrens60
User Rank
Iron
Looking for suggestions
warrens60   4/24/2014 3:03:49 AM
NO RATINGS
Really great and timely set of comments. I have a 2001 Saab 9-5 with a turbo 6. It has painfully been doing a similar thing that Mark described. Almost word for word with exceptions as noted. It has been in the shop several times to fix the trouble light codes.

A couple of variations, if I drive the car at higher RPM, such as in 3rd at speeds of 45-50 and RPM around 2k, the inevitable P0181 code takes longer to show up.

Another issue is a rare P0420 that shows up. About the time this shows up, the car runs rough at startup and then does a dieseling thing after being turned off. The typical run time is about 10-15 minutes. The sequence is after running the car for no less than 10-15 minutes, i stop the car, place it in park, turn it off and the engine diesels for 5-8 seconds.

I thought that the new engines had anti-dieseling soilenoids. Correct me if not all do.

The car runs OK (not in limp mode) however, the milage is terrible. 

Most of my travels occur in town with speeds of between 35-55 mph for 15-20 minutes. 

If I travel on the highway, at speeds of 65-70, I can travel for hundreds of miles without one trouble light issue. 

Suggestions are much appreciated?

Partner Zone
More Blogs from Sherlock Ohms
Sherlock Ohms highlights stories told by engineers who have used their deductive reasoning and technical prowess to troubleshoot and solve the most perplexing engineering mysteries.
Sherlock Ohms highlights stories told by engineers who have used their deductive reasoning and technical prowess to troubleshoot and solve the most perplexing engineering mysteries.
Sherlock Ohms highlights stories told by engineers who have used their deductive reasoning and technical prowess to troubleshoot and solve the most perplexing engineering mysteries.
Sherlock Ohms highlights stories told by engineers who have used their deductive reasoning and technical prowess to troubleshoot and solve the most perplexing engineering mysteries.
Sherlock Ohms highlights stories told by engineers who have used their deductive reasoning and technical prowess to troubleshoot and solve the most perplexing engineering mysteries.
Design News Webinar Series
7/23/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York
7/17/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York
6/25/2014 11:00 a.m. California / 2:00 p.m. New York
5/13/2014 10:00 a.m. California / 1:00 p.m. New York / 6:00 p.m. London
Quick Poll
The Continuing Education Center offers engineers an entirely new way to get the education they need to formulate next-generation solutions.
Aug 18 - 22, Embedded Software Development With Python & the Raspberry Pi
SEMESTERS: 1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6


Focus on Fundamentals consists of 45-minute on-line classes that cover a host of technologies. You learn without leaving the comfort of your desk. All classes are taught by subject-matter experts and all are archived. So if you can't attend live, attend at your convenience.
Next Class: September 30 - October 2
Sponsored by Altera
Learn More   |   Login   |   Archived Classes
Twitter Feed
Design News Twitter Feed
Like Us on Facebook

Sponsored Content

Technology Marketplace

Copyright © 2014 UBM Canon, A UBM company, All rights reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service