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Made by Monkeys

Slideshow: Garbage Disposal Doesn't Hold Water

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Rob Spiegel
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Bad place for corrosion
Rob Spiegel   11/18/2013 8:42:44 AM
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It doesn't seem like a garbage disposal should corrode. This slideshow tells the whole story.

Jim_E
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
Jim_E   11/18/2013 9:14:38 AM
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Agreed that's not something you'd expect to corrode.  It sure does look like galvanic  corrosion aggravated by the physical stress from the grinding.

I don't have a garbage disposal (private sand mound sewage system) but I do have a "leak frog" water alarm under my sink, as I had a leak from the faucet and didn't notice until I saw water dripping in the basement!

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/18/2013 1:40:52 PM
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I never heard of "Leak Frog" – Thanks.   Just all too common to invest in an insurance mechanism after the fact!

Checking Google shows a wide disparity: Leak-Frog, ranging from $14 on eBay to $75 at Sears.

Jim_E
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Re: Leak Frog
Jim_E   11/18/2013 1:53:27 PM
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I have picked them up a couple of times on Woot, two for $14.99 plus shipping, like shown here:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1261488/

I have a few of them scattered throughout the basement (by the hot water heater, by the sump pump, by the well tank, under an outside faucet that I soldered....), and the one under the kitched sink.

There are other brands of detectors out there, but I've had good luck with the leak frog, the batteries last a long time, and I was able to purchase them cheaply.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Leak Frog
Rob Spiegel   11/18/2013 5:29:05 PM
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The Leak Frog sounds like a pretty good idea. It's always distressing to discover the leak after it has made a more-that-$14.99 mess.

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/18/2013 12:54:28 PM
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Considering the age of the disposal, I guess I got a pretty good life-span from it; it was the original equipment from our home built in 1997.  However, as you saw in the slide-show, the casing cracked open like a walnut.  I suppose I really shouldn't balk too loudly at the manufacturer, getting 16 years from a product with a 5 year warranty.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
Rob Spiegel   11/18/2013 5:25:30 PM
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Yes, 16 years is a good run for the disposal, Jim. It's just funny to see a disposer take it on xthe chin over water. Thanks for the slideshow.

Joeb
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
Joeb   11/22/2013 3:23:22 PM
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Most failures of this nature are due to the dishwasher drain dumping into it, very easy place to plumb it into for this purpose but the worst place for it also. Dishwasher soap is sodium hydroxide or lye if you know it by that name, very alkali and therefore very corrosive. It loves aluminum, which the disposal body is made from and eats it just as fast as it touches it. Move your dishwasher drain else where and the disposal will last a lot longer not forever though but longer. Always run the water through it for a few minutes to flush the grindings on down the road a ways. On a related note if your disposal gets smelly use ice cubes to grind it clean. Cram it full of them and turn it on and keep cramming them into it, rinse well. For your pipes sake run your hot water for about a half hour every now and again.

ervin0072002
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
ervin0072002   11/22/2013 4:24:45 PM
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@Joeb, thanks for advice. at our home we had to get rid of the Garbage disposal because of corrosion. We have some backflow from dishwasher even though its much lower in the drain tube. same problem.  

Ps.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
Rob Spiegel   11/22/2013 7:08:29 PM
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Good advice Joeb. Another cleaning technique is to put some lemon, orange, or lime peels in the disposal from time to time.,

Larry M
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Re: Bad place for corrosion
Larry M   11/22/2013 10:35:41 PM
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Joeb wrote: "Dishwasher soap is sodium hydroxide or lye if you know it by that name, very alkali and therefore very corrosive. It loves aluminum, which the disposal body is made from and eats it just as fast as it touches it."

You know, that might explain why disposers no longer last nearly as long as they used to. It used to be very rare to replace a disposer. Now it seems like 10 years is all you get. (I installed a Badger 5 in 2001 and replaced it with another in 2012.) My recollection is that when phosphtes were banned, people began complaining about the poor washing quality of the substitutes. Those substitutes were probably based on sodium hydroxide.

For those who don't remember their college chemistry, sodium hydroxide and fat are the two primary ingredients of some soaps. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap

tekochip
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Definitely Monkeys
tekochip   11/18/2013 9:29:50 AM
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Definitely monkeys at work, how could they have not thought through the materials?


dpccreating
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
dpccreating   11/18/2013 11:11:19 AM
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They did think of those materials, but with a Good/Better/Best Product strategy, you got the Good (or not so good) version.

They make a fully stainless unit for considerably more money and it lasts much longer.

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/18/2013 1:33:55 PM
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I think it's one thing to offer a high-tier product with superior materials (stainless steel), but I wouldn't expect the lower, entry-level product to actually have incompatible materials, placing steel against zinc.

By the way, the HOME DEPOT didn't carry the Stainless Steel version; although they did offer a higher tier product with a more powerful motor.  Wonder if that would have just accelerated the housing deterioration process?!

GTOlover
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
GTOlover   11/18/2013 4:05:07 PM
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I have to agree with you Jim. I would expect the cheaper unit to have a motor failure, or a fork pushed through the housing. NOT have the unit corrode away and leak water all-over the place! Good thing you did not throw a knife out the side!

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/18/2013 7:27:36 PM
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As you could see from the last slide, the thing split open like a walnut. It might have thrown anything with enough mass thru the wall by the time it got so corroded.   I was just glad it was easy enough to swap out. And not terribly expensive; about $100

Cadman-LT
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Cadman-LT   11/18/2013 5:03:32 PM
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JimT, I agree. It's one thing to build a high-end product, but to make the cheaper version doomed for failure is just wrong. It happens all the time. There are some products though, where I bought the cheap model and it worked as good as and lasted as long as the expensive version. Guess it depends on the product..and who makes it to some extent.

Cadman-LT
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Cadman-LT   11/18/2013 5:05:29 PM
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Maybe they do it on purpose. You buy the cheap one, it fails, so next time you buy the expensive model. They just got you twice!

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/18/2013 7:31:15 PM
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Fundamental Economic Principle of Planned Obsolescence.  But, as I commented in another spot, I did get 16 years out of it.  From the construction materials exposed by this dissection, it seems surprising it lasted that long; so I really can't complain.

Cadman-LT
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Cadman-LT   11/18/2013 8:48:59 PM
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Yeah, I missed that it lasted that long. Nothing these days lasts that long. 

Cadman-LT
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Cadman-LT   11/18/2013 8:51:48 PM
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I still have a refridgerator from college, circa 1989, still works fine. I've gone through 2 new ones in the last 10 years, on number 3. Go figure.

far911
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
far911   11/19/2013 9:15:42 AM
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This is true as major items are turning out to be diposable like these days.

tabacon
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
tabacon   11/19/2013 9:52:43 AM
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my garbage disposal also failed like that, but mine was only 5 years old. i didn't tear it appart to find out why it failed, i just bought a different brand.

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/19/2013 11:49:21 AM
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Normally, I would agree with your assessment, but the fountain-like sprinkler effect was just too much for my curiosity.  The perforations were so uniform they seemed almost planned.  I had to take a closer look.

Larry M
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Larry M   11/22/2013 9:46:47 PM
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Tabacon wrote: "my garbage disposal also failed like that, but mine was only 5 years old. i didn't tear it appart to find out why it failed, i just bought a different brand."

Mine lasted about 11 years as did its predecessor. One really annoying thing is the price inflation. I can remember buying these things for $35-40. Now they are around $100. They seem to have gone up much faster than inflation.

Hard to buy another brand. The dealers around here carry only Emerson or InSinkErator and those are really the same product. My previous and current units are both Badger 5s. At least I didn't have to change the under-sink fitting when I changed over.

I filled out and submitted the registration form that came with my disposal when I bought it and just (two days ago) received a survey form. I will have some fun responding to the survey and will cite this website. I wonder if they will respond.

-------

Just took the survey. I couldn't link to this site since the entire survey was check boxes and radio buttons. No place for freeform comments. But I think they know what's going on. The questions ran something like this:

You replaced the unit you bought in 2001. Why did you replace it? Choices included:
  • Water ran out the bottom
  • Water ran down the side
  • Motor stopped running

They did ask if they could contact me and I left them both phone and email information. I'd love to tell them what I think and refer them to this site.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
OLD_CURMUDGEON   11/19/2013 8:47:05 AM
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This is NOT some new phenomenon.  The original article stated that this unit was installed when the house was new.  Therefore, it was probably considered a "builder's fixture".  As with MOST other appliances & fixtures in new homes, they're ALMOST never "top-of-the-line" items.  Since WW II aftermath, when America got back to being itself, GENERAL ELECTRIC had a "lesser" brand that was popular w/ builders, especially for the parents of the "Baby Boom"  generation who were settling down to a peaceful life.  It was the HOTPOINT brand.  Go from subdivision to subdivision and you'd find HOTPOINT appliances installed.  They were always a lesser tier product to the almost equivalent GE namesake product.  I guess HOTPOINT is now finally extinct since one never sees advertisements for their products anymore.

IN-SINK-ERATOR & KITCHEN-AID historically made superior garbage disposers.  Even GE had a heavy duty product that weighed about a "ton"..... just kidding, but it was a bear to deal with.  I'd be willing to bet that the top-of-the-line machines nowadays can probably easily tip the financial scales at well over $300.... oh well..... 

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/19/2013 11:48:39 AM
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It's Interesting to note that in many 'mature' industries, the OEMs have either merged, been acquired, or simply no-longer exist, causing a dilution of the familiar 'name-brand' gene-pool.   I discovered this first-hand about 5 years ago while doing a contract with a big Appliance OEM, whose customers included LG, Maytag, Whirlpool and Kenmore. The engineering group simply called the products, 'white-goods' where common chassis and other designs were the common guts of all those 'name-brands'.  Growing up in Detroit, I knew that Pontiacs, Chevys, and Oldsmobile's were essentially always the same car, but I didn't realize until much later in life that the Appliance industry mixed across corporate lines, too.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
OLD_CURMUDGEON   11/19/2013 12:17:17 PM
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It is no secret that the SEARS brand of appliances, LADY KENMORE & 9now, just) KENMORE are manufactured by WHIRLPOOL CORP.  It's been that way for over 50 years.  But, when WHIRLPOOL bought AMANA, MAYTAG, etc. that's when real consolidation took over.  Essentially today there are only two domestic manufacturers, GE & WHIRLPOOL.

Regarding Detroit, the integration of body styles, component parts/assemblies is also a relatively recent change, dating back to the late 1960s, early 1970s.  Before that, each GM division was much more autonomous.  The POWERGLIDE transmission was unique to CHEVROLET, as was the 265, 283, 327 C.I.D. engine.  Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick & Cadillac all had their own series of engines & transmissions, and were not interchangeable.  Even the vehicle platforms were semi-unique to each manufacturer.  Ditto that for FORD MOTOR CO.  The FORD car & MERCURY car & LINCOLN car featured mostly unique components, but there was more integration in later years.  And, CHRYSLER was no different. CHRYSLER vehicles, DODGE vehicles & PLYMOUTH vehicles shared little except drivetrain components in prior generations, but they too becaime integrated during that transitional period.

In fact, problems rose to a boiling point in the later 70s, when people sued GM because their (for example) Oldsmobile had an engine which came from CHEVROLET.  Even the valve covers were embossed w/ the CHEVROLET signature.  Owners were NOT amused!

William K.
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
William K.   11/19/2013 4:09:19 PM
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@ Old, what I can offer is that I am not at all impressed by the quality of brand "W" appliances for the past few years. It would appear that a lot of quality has been designed out along with some cost. The one that is very obvious is the membrane keypad on a dishwasher that has the adhesive letting loose after only two years. Worse yet, the replacement keypad costs about $95. 

Charles Murray
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Charles Murray   11/19/2013 6:12:01 PM
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Agreed, William K. I simply won't buy a "W" dishwasher. I've learned my lesson the hard way.

Larry M
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Larry M   11/22/2013 10:12:32 PM
OLD_CURMUDGEON wrote: "In fact, problems rose to a boiling point in the later 70s, when people sued GM because their (for example) Oldsmobile had an engine which came from CHEVROLET.  Even the valve covers were embossed w/ the CHEVROLET signature.  Owners were NOT amused!"

Yeah, but when the Hydramatic plant burned down in 1953 and Pontiacs were shipped with PowerGlides and Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs were shipped with DynaFlows, no one said a word, even though us motor-heads knew the two-speed PowerGlides and Dynaflows were clearly inferior transmissions compared to the three-speed Hydramatics. It is possible that the GM execs used that experience to make their decision on responding to the engine shortage.

You would remember this, O_C, but for the young folks' benefit:

http://www.autotran.us/TheGreatHydraMaticFire.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydramatic

http://www.freep.com/article/20130812/NEWS02/308120157/

 

Electron Wrangler
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Electron Wrangler   11/19/2013 2:14:51 PM
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HOTPOINT & GE applieances are made in the same factories, from the same parts.  The only difference is the name.  Because GE does not spend money avdvertising HOTPOINT, the price is lower.  For a given number of dollars I have purchased HOTPOINT units two models "up" from the same priced GE unit.

OLD_CURMUDGEON
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
OLD_CURMUDGEON   11/19/2013 3:42:30 PM
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Haven't seen HOTPOINT appliances in several years.  What I was referring to was decades ago.  My family were homebuilders in several areas of the country in the period before & after WW II.  And, I can tell you from experience that they ONLY installed HOTPOINT units in their homes, EXCEPT in their personal homes .... it was GENERAL ELECTRIC all the way!  But, as I said that's 50 to 60 years ago!  That's ancient history.

tekochip
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
tekochip   11/19/2013 4:43:58 PM
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Electron Wrangler

I can't speak for all appliances, of course, but typically what an OEM will do is make the unit with different brand names and then slightly cripple the cheaper one.  On an oven they may make the oven cycles a little worse just so that the more expensive unit WILL cook better than the cheaper one.  Washing machines will have their cycles altered or will sometimes be missing wash steps.  It's sort of the same thing that Intel does with their Celeron version.

oldguywithtoys
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
oldguywithtoys   11/22/2013 4:30:33 PM
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Slight correction: Hotpoint appliances weren't made by GE (General Electric) but by GEC (General Electric Corp.), a British conglomerate that went through a few trademark infringement lawsuits with the U.S. GE.  GEC also owned Plessey Semiconductor, a good chunk of BAE, Marconi test equipment, several holdings in power generation and distribution and, in 1978, purchased the company I worked for: A.B. Dick.  In the early days, Hotpoint Appliances featured prominently in the company newsletter.

Larry M
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Re: Definitely Monkeys
Larry M   11/22/2013 10:25:50 PM
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oldguywith toys wrote: "Slight correction: Hotpoint appliances weren't made by GE (General Electric) but by GEC (General Electric Corp.), a British conglomerate that went through a few trademark infringement lawsuits with the U.S. GE."

No, no, no. Don't confuse the British company with the Hotpoint brand used by GE in the United States. They are NOT the same.

Interestingly, the UK company was actually started in California and moved to the UK. and for a period of almost 20 years (1989-2008), the US GE company owned 50% of the UK Hotpoint, so it's a possible source of confusion.

The Hotpoint appliances sold in the US are really GE products with NOTHING changed but the label. Even the part numbers are the same.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotpoint for example.

William K.
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Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
William K.   11/19/2013 11:49:27 AM
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The corrosion in this particular unit is probably due to a combination of causes. For starters the body is probably a casting of impure used metals, with the result that interganual corrosion is much easier. Another contributor would be the selection of dishwasher detergent, because some of them are much more agressive than others. And there can be an installation problem if the drain connection is high enough to hold water standing inside the grinding chamber. I have replaced several units for various folks that have failed due to rust destroying the connection between the motor drive shaft and the rotating grinder disk. Those units would sound like they were running, but looking into the chamber using a bright flashlight would reveal that the disk was not spinning.

The units that will last a lot longer have both a stainless steel grinding chamber and a stainless grinding disk. But those models are not in the cheap price catagory, and may not even be available in the discount stores. The price difference versus lifetime tradeoff is a thing to consider, given the relatively easy exercise of replacing a failed unit.

Tool_maker
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
Tool_maker   11/19/2013 12:42:15 PM
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@William K: I think your analysis makes a lot of sense. If I understand correctly, had this unit drained completely each use, it would not have had the chemical reaction which destroyed it. I like your reasoning, because I hate to think there is an engineer out there who knowingly designed something destined to fail. Thank you for a reasonable explanation.

bob from maine
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
bob from maine   11/19/2013 1:16:59 PM
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I agree, had this units not had standing water inside the chamber, electrolysis would have been much less. Frequently installers put the trap so high that water stands in the disposal. Often the dishwasher pumps out into the disposal so there is a constant renewal of electrolyte. I have replaced many disposals but never seen one quite as bad as the one in the article.

William K.
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
William K.   11/19/2013 4:04:06 PM
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@Bob, the most damaged garbage grinder that I have replaced was one from an apartment where somebody had used quite strong acid to clear the drains. The result was enough clearance between the grinding disk and the body to allow a whole pan of elbow macaroni to pass through undamaged. The result was an emergency call to unstop the drain, which was full of intact elbow noodles. The reason that I get asked to help in such situations is that I also do assorted repairs and handyman things as a respite from the requirements of engineering. (Much looser tolreances, you might say). Plus it gives me a chance to help a variety of interesting folks. 

What we can be sure of is that strong sulphuric acid is damaging to both dispose-alls and to steel pipes.

bob from maine
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
bob from maine   11/19/2013 4:18:23 PM
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@William K - Whew! Never had one of those. Acid you say? I did do one installation where a Kitchen Aid 3/4 HP disposal was being used by a hobbyist as the initial stage of making paper pulp from pieces of boards, then the resulting slurry was run through a blender. It was mounted on a workbench and the noise was unbelievable! The Kitchen Aid was the 3rd attempt after two inferior brands and as far as I know, it is still running. Interesting people indeed!

Larry M
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
Larry M   11/22/2013 10:19:24 PM
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Bob from Maine wrote: "I agree, had this units not had standing water inside the chamber, electrolysis would have been much less. Frequently installers put the trap so high that water stands in the disposal. Often the dishwasher pumps out into the disposal so there is a constant renewal of electrolyte. I have replaced many disposals but never seen one quite as bad as the one in the article."

The trap on my unit is much lower than the disposal chamber. In fact I had to make a 3-inch extension on the drain tube to reach down to the trap. The elbow which came with the unit was not long enough.

Nevertheless my old unit looks just like the one shown here. I still have it--waiting for spare time to salvage the copper motor windings. Probably $5 worth of copper which I can put with my copper pipe scraps until I can get all of it to the scrap metal yard.

armorris
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
armorris   6/17/2014 5:33:30 PM
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Replacing the disposal may be easy enough, but repairing the water damage to the cabinet might not be so easy or cheap.

William K.
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Re: Inferior materials and poor designs + bad installation
William K.   6/20/2014 11:02:35 PM
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The main reason that disposers fail is improper installation. They are lower than the drain outlet and so water stays inside the disposer instead of running out the drain pipe. That problem occurs because builders put the drin connection higher than it should be, for a grinder installation. Lowering the drain connection does take some effort, but it is the solution to both leaks and smells.

wbswenberg
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Disposal
wbswenberg   11/22/2013 6:22:44 PM
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Yes, I had to replace the disposal last year after 16 years in our new house.  I picked a middle of road from Home Depot.  We were also having problems with the vent for the sink and dishwasher.  The metalized plastic curled up from the bottom.  Could not find a replacement vent cover so replaced the whole vent wye with stainless cover.  When the dishwasher ran all the discharge blew out the vent into the sink.  At least it was better than going all over the counter top in spite of the WIFEs rag dam.  So this went on for quite some time.  I even took it apart to verify that the plug was removed from the disposal and I had plumbed it correctly.  We lost track and ceased to notice that it is now working correctly.  I have not a clue.  

You know I bless test equipment.  So I guess by the laying on of hands - me working on it - now works.  By the way for a small minimum fee I will bless your equipment.  I think it would work better if you hold the phone or computer up to your equipment you want blessed.

And I am serious in a humorous way.

tomintx
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Garbage Disposal as Blender
tomintx   11/22/2013 8:09:13 PM
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We were at a tailgate party in Austin Texas.  These guys had a "redneck margarita machine."  It was a Cooler with a disposal mounted on the bottom of it.  The disposal output was piped back to the top of the cooler and there was a petcock on the pipe for filling your glass.

It worked.  

OLD_CURMUDGEON
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Re: Garbage Disposal as Blender
OLD_CURMUDGEON   11/25/2013 8:12:07 AM
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OFall the entries to this blog, THIS one is far & away the best....... You can keep your electrolysis & all that chemistry....... I'll take the margarhitas & TX BBQ anyday!!!!!

ADIOS!

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Re: Garbage Disposal as Blender
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   11/25/2013 10:55:47 AM
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Yuck!  I sure hope the aspiring bartenders spent the $100 for a NEW Disposal in this redneck apparatus. But as "back-yard" projects go, I assume it was USED.  I guess with enough Tequila the lingering after-taste of garbage will eventually fade,,,,

(PS - Glad to see so many people enjoyed this Blog!)

tomintx
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Re: Garbage Disposal as Blender
tomintx   11/25/2013 12:45:10 PM
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Yuck!  I sure hope the aspiring bartenders spent the $100 for a NEW Disposal in this redneck apparatus.

These guys were actually pharmacists.  I trusted that their machine was safe.  Besides, the margaritas were tasty.

bobjengr
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GARBAGE
bobjengr   11/25/2013 5:54:43 PM
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Joeb--Now these are two very good pieces of advice.  I had no idea this would work.  Will give it a try.   I retired from GE in 2005 and can attest to the fact that appliances definitely do not last as long as previous models.   The "average" home owners move every four (4) years.  (At least that was the number prior to 2005.)  Appliance manufacturers know that and design accordingly.

loadster
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for the furry critters everywhere
loadster   11/26/2013 12:25:27 PM
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If its any consolation, I have replaced several disposals and its usually because the shaft seal leaks and allows the motor housing to hydrate and corrode.

Its a pig; why in-sink-erator ever thought to denigrate cute little badgers as omnivores, I don't know. I will remember this case to be careful buying that brand or ensuring housing are not made of pig-pot-metal. Sorry hogs everywhere.

I have to say galvanic corrosion makes sense with dissimilar metals. The ferrous grinding plates are probably the culprit. You got 16 years of convenience for $6.25 a year. It does look like you were grinding rocks in there. But I've heard that sound and you would have not abided that. It is surprising that you ran right out and bought a similar replacement before forensic cracking of the case.

My current hog is a kenmore; at the time they were closer to shop then Lowes homedepot or other. But this evening I will look closely for corrosion signs in the food chamber. Leak alarm is smart insurance cuz' warranties are weak. Amazing disposals price range from $80 to $300. guess we know why but the quality is not apparent when its painted pretty midnight blue.

Cabe Atwell
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Re: for the furry critters everywhere
Cabe Atwell   1/20/2014 5:41:13 PM
NO RATINGS
'We were at a tailgate party in Austin Texas. These guys had a "redneck margarita machine." It was a Cooler with a disposal mounted on the bottom of it. The disposal output was piped back to the top of the cooler and there was a petcock on the pipe for filling your glass. It worked.'

Now that's engineering!

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