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RMS Meter Saves Investor Big Bucks

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naperlou
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Laws of physics
naperlou   12/3/2012 10:27:20 AM
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If it breaks the laws of physics, it probably is not true.  This situation is very reminiscent of the cold fusion controversy. 

The laws of physics can be ammended, but then the correspondence principle kicks in.  You may find a new physics, but it has to agree with the current physics where that physics works well.  Quantum mechanics and classical mechanics are the cononical example.

It is a good thing the gentleman approached you. 

GTOlover
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Platinum
Re: Laws of physics
GTOlover   12/3/2012 3:17:49 PM
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Aye, Scotty tried to explain this to Captain Kirk often!

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Blogger
Re: Laws of physics
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   12/4/2012 12:53:33 PM
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Scotty, I need WARP power in 5 minutes or we’re all dead ! I c’hant change the laws of Physics, Capt’n – I’ve Got to have 30 Minutes !

Rob Spiegel
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Blogger
Re: Laws of physics
Rob Spiegel   12/3/2012 8:55:10 PM
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Yes to that, Naperlou. If something sounds to good to be true, it's probably too good to be true -- just ask those who invested with Bernie Madoff.

Bob Salter
User Rank
Iron
Re: Laws of physics
Bob Salter   12/4/2012 1:08:03 PM
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The most recent device to be advertised the last couple years  with more energy put out than put in is the so called "Amish Mantle". When one buys this wooden cover for several hundred dollars, he gets free a plug-in space heater "that actually puts out more heat than goes into it." How this occurs is not actually explained; but how many consumers have the knowledge and resources to verify this? Electric space heaters must be fairly popular because so many are sold. Their value is in keeping  small space warm and cozy instead of heating the rest of the house to the same temperature. Since electric resistance heat is usually the most expensive heat to consume, its relative worth would have to be calculated against the cost of the whole house heating system.

Rob Spiegel
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Blogger
Re: Laws of physics
Rob Spiegel   12/4/2012 2:34:38 PM
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Bob, that sounds like a stretch. 

Bob Salter
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Iron
Re: Laws of physics
Bob Salter   12/4/2012 3:09:06 PM
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Rob,  do you mean it's a stretch to get more heat or energy out than goes in? Having taken Theromdynamics 101 in enginering school, this claim is an obvious falsehood; however, the typical non-technical person might believe the manufacturer's statement. They put it in writing after all. In this forum of mainly technical people, we can only look at the claim with a wry smile.

On another subject regarding claims for "free" energy, I can remember 20-30 years ago when "geo-thermal" meant finding a place on earth where magma was close enough to the earth's surface that a liquid transfer medium could be pumped down through a pipe, then out after having its temperature significantly raised to obtain heat. The "heat" could either be used as heat or to make steam to run through a turbine/generator to make electricity. I believe some version of this has been used in Iceland for a couple decades. Now, "geo-thermal" is claimed by heat pump system manufacturers when they run refrigerent lines 6 feet underground taking advantage of the relatively constant ground temperature as a heat sink. "Geo-thermal?" That's a stretch!

Rob Spiegel
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Blogger
Re: Laws of physics
Rob Spiegel   12/4/2012 3:33:03 PM
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Yes, Bob, I meant that getting more energy out than is put in is a stretch. As for geo-thermal, it's a matter of harvesting energy that already exists. Whether it's practical and worthwhile, I don't know. 

Tom-R
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Gold
Re: Laws of physics
Tom-R   12/7/2012 4:44:13 PM
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A 40 watt incandescent bulb can save more money in energy than it uses too, as long as you place the lamp directly below the thermostat controlling your furnace.

Jim_E
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Platinum
Re: Laws of physics
Jim_E   12/4/2012 10:40:52 AM
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I still hold onto a very slight glimmer of hope for cold fusion, based on some currently unknown atomic level interaction.

But like naperlou says, discoveries need to agree with current rules of physics (unless it's a radical sub-atomic level discovery that changes the current rules....)

Analog Bill
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Gold
Re: Laws of physics
Analog Bill   12/4/2012 12:29:36 PM
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Some 30 years ago, my mother actually invested in a similar "techno-scam". Some whiz-kid had allegedly invented a substitute for an external antenna for car radios. I asked her to get a copy of the technical description. What was described was, in actuality, a 3-electrode neon bulb (imagine an NE-2 with a third electrode). These were commercially-available components that could be described as a "soft, gaseous triac". Anyway, this device was to be placed inside the metal enclosure of the radio and serve as the antenna (claimed to work for AM and FM). Of course, this violates all that's known about antenna and electromagnetic waves. I told her she'd better get her money back before others discovered they were being bamboozled by this guy. Fortunately, she did ... and predictably, the others never saw their money again.

streetrodder
User Rank
Gold
It only works in cartoons
streetrodder   12/4/2012 11:27:45 AM
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This product reminds me of "High Diving Hare"

Sam finally has Bugs tied and standing on the edge of the platform, with Sam sawing away at the board, gloating: "Now ya smarty-pants, let's see ya get out-in this one! This time, you're a-diving!" However, as soon as Sam cuts through the board, it's the ladder and platform that falls, leaving the cut plank suspended in mid-air. Bugs turns to the camera and cracks: "I know this defies the law of gravity, but, you see, I never studied law!"

 

 

RonChownyk
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Iron
The Ultimate Test Instrument
RonChownyk   12/4/2012 2:44:24 PM
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I'm currently developing a handheld gizmometer that will replace every single piece of test equipment in use today.  I'm looking for investors.


"It can't test everything, but it can test anything."

 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
RMS meter save the invester big bucks
William K.   12/4/2012 7:20:30 PM
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I came across a product that I pointed out to my customer must have been magic. It was an electronic replacement for the neon sign (cold-cathode discharge lights) transformer. The failed unit was marked "120 volts, 360 watts" input, and 12,000 volts, 100Ma output, while the markings on the replacement were "120 volts, 75 watts, and the output was described as 12,000 volts, 100Ma, which equals 120 watts. Thus the replacement device was claiming to deliver 55 more watts than the input power. My somewhat non-technical customer said that it was good to have such a more efficient replacement part. I installed it and it did work, but I always wonder about that.

 

As for those electric heaters said to reduce heating bills, there is an element of falshood and misrepresentation in them, since they never mention the input wattage in any of the descriptions. And of course, using an electric heater will indeed cut down on ones GAS HEATING expenses, but as somebody else stated, you can only save money if you turn down the heat to the rest of the house and only heat the one room. In normal systems that is called "zone heating" and it does save money. But it is not simple and it is not cheap to add.

Bob Salter
User Rank
Iron
Re: RMS meter save the invester big bucks
Bob Salter   12/7/2012 3:07:08 PM
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I was involved, briefly at my decision, with an inventor who dreamed up a method of supercharging an automobile engine. This was over 30 years ago when an automobile engine used a carburator or throttle body fuel injection and the air cleaners were of the "drum" design with a square donut-shaped air filter inside. His novel design was to put small "cups" on the outide diameter of the filter to catch the air as it rushed into and around the sheet metal outer can. Somehow, this would make the air filter rotate, and he wanted my company to supply the bearings to allow this. Next, he reasoned that if the air filter could spin, it would also supercharge the engine, giving it more power and the obligitory increase in mileage - MPG. Amazing, I always thought a supercharger had to be driven by the engine or its exhaust gases - turbocharging.

Well, a couple years later I saw that he actually obtained a patent for this idea. Makes one lose repsect for the Patent Bureau doesn't it? It was also advertised for sale by J.C. Whitney: no surprise here. I don't think too many were sold.

 

 

CliffG
User Rank
Iron
Re: RMS meter save the invester big bucks
CliffG   12/7/2012 5:15:22 PM
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I can follow the "logic" by looking at my "turbo" vacuum attachment. Instead of a motor-driven brush, the air being sucked in drives the brush. Obviously (he said sarcastically) the brush is being driven for "free" so the energy saved is what would have powered the brush motor.

mtripoli3
User Rank
Gold
Re: RMS meter save the invester big bucks
mtripoli3   12/7/2012 6:01:48 PM
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If you really want to have a fun read, have a look at patent number 6025810 by Strom. I have never been a fan of the entire patent "process"; this one put the proverbial "nail" in it. At some point I'm going to have this printed on some very nice paper and professionally framed for my office wall. I'll give you a "teaser"; the last line of the "Abstract" portion of the patent reads "...thereby sending the signal at a speed faster than light". Enjoy.

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: RMS meter save the invester big bucks
William K.   12/8/2012 3:56:44 PM
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The "turbo" attachment for the vacuum cleaner does need a good bit of flow a,d some pressure drop in order to work. And while it is by no means "free power" it does provide the rotating brush mechanism that is able to clean things that can't otherwise be cleaned. So it is a worthwhile accessory. The spinning air cleaner concept is a lot stranger and certainly gives the impression that the inventor had no clue as to the actual purpose of a turbo, or any other, kind of supercharger. I did see a really neat one that used a verturi-effect system along with a scuba-type of air bottle. It would only work for a few seconds, but since those cars using it would do the quarter mile in less than five seconds that was not a problem. But it would not be useful for most other applications.

I did not yet investigate the patent about sending waves faster than light speed, but I did disprove the transmission of sound through a solid at almost light speed. That was an instance that lead me to add periodic reality checks to most of my experimental procedures. I did not wish to be embarrased like that consultant was.

Tool_maker
User Rank
Platinum
Snake oil
Tool_maker   12/10/2012 1:05:03 PM
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  After having just come out of the political campaign season, why should any of us be surprised that there are a sizable number of people willing to part with their money in order to pursue an idea they want to be true, no matter how little logic was involved. During my entire adult life, I'm 66, there have been charlatans able to dupe a segment of our society to pay good money for ridiculous schemes. Yeaterday's PT Barnum is today's politician and they have the bottomless pit of our tax dollars to chase their impossible energy sources, mythological energy saving device, or whatever the flavor of the day is. At least this guy had the sense to submit his ideas to tests before pouring endless sums of money in a snake oil scheme.

  Hooray for tests and logic.

warren@fourward.com
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Platinum
Re: Snake oil
warren@fourward.com   1/1/2013 11:33:59 AM
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Wasn't it W.C. Fields who said "never smarten up a chump."  Today it is "Never smarten up a voter."

williamlweaver
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Snake oil
williamlweaver   1/1/2013 12:23:28 PM
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I have been asking the following question on the final exam of our Instrumentation and Measurement course since 2001. After going through a semester of various transducers, models, and calibration routines for all kinds of instruments I always get a couple of students that would still part with their money because of how much profit there could be made if it actually worked (or if they could convince others that it worked). The problem I am having is that as our smartphones continue to improve, I feel like Professor Harold Hill in the Music Man -- somebody may actually invent one...

"Soon after returning home for break, a good friend of yours from high school tells you that they plan to invest in a new invention they saw on the Internet.  They invite you to get in on the action.  The new invention is a small hand-held device about the size of a smartphone called the "Diecorder".  The Diecorder is a new aid for people on a diet.  You simply aim the device at a plate of food and it automatically scans it for the number of calories, grams of fat, and names and amounts of all of the vitamins contained in the food.  You can get in on the ground floor of this invention for only 2000 bucks.  Assuming that you have $2000 to invest, do you think this is a wise investment?  Please state why or why not."

Colorado Native
User Rank
Silver
RMS Vs average meters
Colorado Native   12/11/2012 11:02:24 AM
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Obviously the highly distorted waveform on the output would cause significant errors with a common average calibrated meter and high crest factors >3:1 will cause increasing errors even with true RMS meters although to a much lower error rate than average reading meters.  Average responding meters are only good for reading sine waves.

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