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Internal Combustion Engines Primed for Performance
3/26/2012

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The Chevy Cruze Eco punched up its fuel economy to 42mpg highway by using a 1.4-liter Ecotec turbocharged engine. The engine's Turbo Airflow uses a compressor wheel (driven by hot exhaust gas) to draw air into the intake. The air is forced through an intercooler and then travels to the engine's intake manifold. The intake manifold subsequently distributes air to cylinders, where fuel is added, and combustion takes place. (Source: GM)
The Chevy Cruze Eco punched up its fuel economy to 42mpg highway by using a 1.4-liter Ecotec turbocharged engine. The engine's Turbo Airflow uses a compressor wheel (driven by hot exhaust gas) to draw air into the intake. The air is forced through an intercooler and then travels to the engine's intake manifold. The intake manifold subsequently distributes air to cylinders, where fuel is added, and combustion takes place.
(Source: GM)

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imagineer1000
User Rank
Iron
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
imagineer1000   4/4/2013 2:29:48 PM
NO RATINGS
Having just rented a Prius for several days, I can say that in spite driving in power mode between 75 and 80 MPH for 80% of the time in mild hilly terrain, and the rest split between ungraded/unpaved roads. I still averaged 43 MPG (42.9 - topped off tank several times over 500 miles to get a decent read).  It was also the only compact I have rented that was easy to get a large heavy box of our equipment into.  Overall pretty comfortable.  My criticisms of the Prius - no clearance underneath - scraped going into driveways and curbs when parking, and ultimately tore up the (air dam?) on a cattle grate on a dirt road.  Also, dashboard GUI is way too cluttered and non-intuitive.  Otherwise thumbs up.


Regards costs, I can't see how ICE can beat an (all) electric -(not the Prius). I think people forget there are maintenance costs associated w/ ICE - oil, transmission fluid, clutches, seals, filters, belts, radiator re-coring, anti-freeze replacement, exhaust/catalytic converter, timing sensors, O2 sensors, water pump etc.  on a mechanically/electronically very complex piece of machinery that simply aren't necessary on an electric.  And after 10-15 years how much is ICE replacement going to cost (if it makes it that far - my Chevy only made 60k w/ $2000 maintenance/repair costs, my Jeep has 370k w/ only routine maintenance, which has added up to around $3000 sans items that would apply to an electric as well, like A/C.

benmlee
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
benmlee   3/25/2013 12:51:32 PM
NO RATINGS
1. Consider the depreciation expense.  A Prius depreciates at a higher rate than a Yaris.  The depreciation of a Prius in the first five years is TWICE the depreciation of a Yaris, or about $6,000 more.  This factor alone wipes out any savings in gasoline expense, considering 15k miles per year.

---> I have a Yaris. $17k when new, now with 150k probably $3k. Prius $24k new, recently looked for one, they are $10k used. Both around $14k depreciation. Prius is a bigger car, so is apples to orange comparison anyway. 

2. If you don't care about depreciation because you are going to keep your Prius forever, then you better think about how much it is going to cost to replace the batteries.  "Prius batteries last forever; I will never have to replace them, and maintenance costs have been low!"  Right.  Sure.  I believe it.  NOT!

---> Even taxi are using the Prius, so you know they have got to be reliable and low cost. Used battery is $1.5k-2k. Normal car will have to change the transmission about the same time. Even if is a clutch car, clutch needs replacement. After labor, is about the same. On the plus side, Prius battery rarely need replacement. You are already ahead of the game here.



3. What about your time?  Time is money, as they say.  Accelerating at rates that give you 52 MPG, and driving slowly on the highway to maximize fuel efficiency will both increase the time you sit in your car.  Is your time worth anything?  Mine is.  2 - 3 minutes of my time every day, spent sitting in a Prius to maximize fuel efficiency is enough time to wipe out any fuel expense savings.  Often when I find myself held up in traffic because of a slow driver, it is a Prius!

---> Drove a rental Prius, it was just like a typical car. Adequate acceleration no different than Yaris or any other economy cars. On any car, the faster you go the more gas. That holds true no matter what. Drive a car at 80mph, and you mpg goes way down. Go slow or fast, Prius still get better mpg than a normal car.

After seeing taxi use Prius around here, and started reading about how long the battery last, I started looking for a used Prius. Soon gave up. They were not depreciating like I hoped. Is a good car, and the market has spoken. People want the Prius as a used car, so price stays high.

 

 

 

jkam
User Rank
Iron
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
jkam   11/16/2012 2:29:52 PM
Comparing the depreciation of a used Prius against the depreciation of a new Echo is not apples to oranges.  I have a (true) depreciation story that can beat yours:

Four years ago I bought a '98 Jetta TDI with 240k miles on it for $7000.  I've put 70k more miles on it and am now selling it for $6200 with 310k miles.  Repairs have been one alternator.  Expenses have been fuel, oil changes and tires.  The car is chipped so has about 150 hp and 300 lb ft of torque.  I drive it like a complete loon and still get fuel mileage in the low 40s around town and low 50s on the highway.  70,000 miles for $800 in depreciation is 1.1 cents per mile for a great car, fun to drive, has always been 100% reliable, carries five passengers and has a tow hitch.

In a comparison of depreciation between a new car and a used car the used car will always have the advantage.

J. Kammeyer

bwilson4web
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
bwilson4web   9/20/2012 5:50:50 PM
"1. Consider the depreciation expense."

We bought a new $14,250, Echo in 2001 instead of the Prius and sold it in 2009 for $3,000. We had just under 30,000 miles on it or about $0.33/mile depreciation.

We bought a used, Prius, $17,300 in 2005 with 49,000 miles and I just drove home in the 150,000 mile, in our perfectly fine, 52 MPG commuting car. So if it disappeared tomorrow, $0.17/mile, half the Echo rate.

BTW, our NHW11 also has a 1 kW inverter and provided emergency power when the tornados tore up the TVA power lines over four days and six hours at two gallons/day . . . no carbon monoxide risk . . . too quiet to hear outside of our property line.

Our 2010 Prius was $24,250 bought in May 2009 (we sold the Echo to help pay for it.) It works perfectly fine and even towed a small airplane 600 miles from Canton Il to Huntsville, Al. It also has a 1 kW inverter. The newer car, it has 35,000 miles or $0.66/mile, today. In another three years, it is likely to be the Echo $0.33/mile rate and descending.

 

"2. . . . better think about how much it is going to cost to replace the batteries."

In November 2008 I upgraded the traction battery from the original style to the newer modules from salvage Prius, $1,700. The old traction battery was working perfectly fine and the modules measured 5.0-5.5 Ahr versus the new ones at 6.5 Ahr capacity.

I kept the 38, old battery modules and am looking at replacing a 48V, lead-acid battery in our electric bicycle with the NiMH modules. This should double the 10 mile range.

"3. What about your time?"

I have always driven in the right lane, following traffic or with cruise control set to the posted speed limit. It gives me time to think and plan what I'm going to do at work or on the way home, plan dinner and shopping lists.

I am not a "Type A" driver. Often, when being tailgated in the right lane, will change so the tailgater can accelerate, pass me on the right, and get away from me. But if I'm conducting a 'study', I have no problem with reaching 100 mph and still getting 22.5 MPG. But in reality, flying meets my need for speed and isolation from the road-rage idiots.

". . . .If you look at the total cost of ownership of a Prius compared to a Yaris, "

We have owned the Echo (the original Yaris) and choose to continue to own the 2003 Prius, the Echo equivalent. We already have the 1.8L, 2010 Prius and both have tow bars used for oversized loads and the occasional rental boat. More importantly, there is no car that matches the 140 mph, 4 gal/hr, airplane. We also have an electric bicycle for trips to the grocery store.

In short, we're pretty happy and don't see any gaps in our transportation needs and desires. Our lives are as quiet as our cars and when we go out of town, we eat at upscale restaurants because we don't worry about gas burned in a frantic drive back home.

Bob Wilson

Shadetree Engineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: Engines and motors
Shadetree Engineer   9/20/2012 1:43:14 PM
NO RATINGS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8r-mwfQ70o

It was $10 million and the X-Prize committee tried real hard to make this a real-world competition by requiring that the car entries demonstrated manufacturing cabability to qualify, not just show off what a one-off laboratory experiment is capable of.

In fact, if I remember right this was the very first X-Prize competition that was designed to avoid the previous results where the prize winner never actually puts their technology onto the market.

Shadetree Engineer
User Rank
Gold
Re: from rob to rob
Shadetree Engineer   9/20/2012 1:16:55 PM
NO RATINGS
Ask someone who runs a grow room using CO2 to boost the air mixture inside the room.  You get a higher yield, yes. Oxygen production however will not increase enough to make it safe to be in there without a respirator!

Critic
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
Critic   9/20/2012 11:41:00 AM
@bwilson4web:

People who own hybrids or electric cars try to show by analysis that they are saving money, but usually they are not! 

1. Consider the depreciation expense.  A Prius depreciates at a higher rate than a Yaris.  The depreciation of a Prius in the first five years is TWICE the depreciation of a Yaris, or about $6,000 more.  This factor alone wipes out any savings in gasoline expense, considering 15k miles per year.

2. If you don't care about depreciation because you are going to keep your Prius forever, then you better think about how much it is going to cost to replace the batteries.  "Prius batteries last forever; I will never have to replace them, and maintenance costs have been low!"  Right.  Sure.  I believe it.  NOT!

3. What about your time?  Time is money, as they say.  Accelerating at rates that give you 52 MPG, and driving slowly on the highway to maximize fuel efficiency will both increase the time you sit in your car.  Is your time worth anything?  Mine is.  2 - 3 minutes of my time every day, spent sitting in a Prius to maximize fuel efficiency is enough time to wipe out any fuel expense savings.  Often when I find myself held up in traffic because of a slow driver, it is a Prius!

If you look at the total cost of ownership of a Prius compared to a Yaris, you will see that the Yaris has a lower cost, even though the gasoline expense is a little more than that of a Prius.

The Prius isn't for anyone who wants to save money.  It is only for people who don't comprehend that there are expenses other than fuel.

The MSRP range you quoted for the Yaris seems accurate, but the correct range for the Prius is $24,000 - $29,805, not $19,737 - $24,016.  There are stripped-down models, and there are also more expensive models.

sbkenn
User Rank
Gold
Re: Internal Combustion Engines
sbkenn   9/20/2012 10:54:27 AM
The efficiency of new cars over older ones is moot if, as I have read, the emmissions over the existance of the vehicle is >90% in manufacture and recycling and 10% in use.  It indicates that an older car kept in service for another 5, or even 10 years, saves a lot more than scrapping a 10y/o vehicle to replace it with even a hybrid.  Also, with recharging a battery or hybrid vehicle, it only moves the emissions back to the power station.

robatnorcross
User Rank
Gold
Re: rdelaplaza
robatnorcross   8/11/2012 7:30:51 PM
NO RATINGS
Sorry. Don't buy the analogy. The SUN is the difference compared to the generator/motor, etc comparison. The sun is contributing to the energy lost by the "motor".

On top of that if you cut down a tree it gives the rest of the trees a little more CO2 to "breathe" which apparently they like.

rdelaplaza
User Rank
Silver
Re: from rob to rob
rdelaplaza   8/11/2012 12:09:59 PM
NO RATINGS
Yes plants take CO2 and produce Oxigen, the KEY here is HOW MUCH and at what SPEED, the amount they use is the same no matter how much CO2 is in the environment and the speed at which they use it is also CONSTANT (or to say in a different way; dependent within narrow limits of the amounts of sun the receive, which can't be changed).

The only way to increase HOW MUCH CO2 gets converted is to INCREASE the AMOUNT OF  PLANTS, unfortunately the net balance IN PLANET EARTH is that the NET AMOUNT OF PLANTS in the planet is DECREASING, the planet is being DEFORESTED at incresing speeds as depredatory human use of plants and resources increase and HUMAN PRODUCTION of CO2 and polution is INCREASING at such rate that ANY AMOUNT OF PLANTS is actually able to take those amounts of CO2.

Get the idea?


Is like the idea of a generator driven by an electric motor to produce energy that will drive the electric motor... the numbers DON'T ADD up.

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