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China's Electric Cars No Better Than Ours
6/6/2012

Electric vehicle sales are sluggish in China.   (Source: BYD)
Electric vehicle sales are sluggish in China.
(Source: BYD)

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Jerry dycus
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Overpriced, tech EV's
Jerry dycus   6/6/2012 8:32:56 AM
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              Yes overpriced EV's are not selling great in China as here because they build then overweight, size and use expensive drives and batteries.

               Had they, we built 1,000lb composite bodied, aero with lead batteries the mass production price would be $8-10k and save that in gasoline saving in 3-5 yrs or so making them very economical.

               Why don't they? Because they would canibalize their big ICE car market thus why we get EV's designed to fail by being overweight, overpriced, overteched.

                 One has to notice no mention of the other EV's in China/Asia like 2-3wh ones that are selling fast in large quantities proving that done right, EV's are very good at lowering transport costs.

                 My own EV's show that with 250 and 600mpg equivalents for my 2 seat sportwagon and Harley size EV trike respectively and cost to build are very low as few parts needed.  Why is they are lightweight and use lead batteries.

Mydesign
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Mydesign   6/7/2012 8:08:10 AM
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1 saves
Jerry, most of the EV’s are overpriced when compare with the same type gasoline (Petrol/Diesel/CNG) vehicle. For EV the main advantage is, its running cost is very less when compare with gasoline based vehicles, but maintenance is more. Once in 3-4 years we have to change the entire charging unit with Cells and this cost up to 15-20% of the vehicle cost.

naperlou
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
naperlou   6/7/2012 9:59:08 AM
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MyDesign, that is called life cycle cost.  For an automobile used for normal consumer use (which means lots of variability) the gasoline engine still has the lowest lifecycle cost for moderate time frames.  Depending on the hybrid and the price of gasoline, it may take 3 to 5 years to recover the cost of the hybrid.  At least with the hybrid you have the same flexibility as a standard gasoline vehicle. 

Droid
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Droid   6/7/2012 10:11:11 AM
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Seems the whole "green" industry is infested with companies trying to make products which don't make economical sense.  No doubt the reasons for this are varied - depending on which industry we are talking about.  This article was only discussion the one corner - we could probably say similar things about solar, wind, biofuels - and the list goes on. Companies in these markets absolutely need to find ways to make their products viable economically. What's particularly aggravating is the fact that government money (our tax $$$) is being poured into these ventures only to have them fail.  Even the Chinese commies realize that it's hard to fight against market forces and the economic needs of consumer.

As very simplistic example - My garage has a hot air solar furnace which I built for cheap.  This might cost about $300 using retail purchased goods. Mine was build for less because I'm a scavenger.  A similar unit at northerntool.com is priced at around  $1400.  Quite frankly my heater works ok but not great  However, I wouldn't even consider buying the $1400 retail model because payback would be so poor.

Dave
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Dave   6/7/2012 10:26:15 AM
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1000 lb composite cars would most likely not pass any safety standards, thus, the overweight vehicles we have now.

By the way, a while back, Consumer Reports ran an article about the quickest-payback hybrid and they specified the Toyota Camry hybrid (at only $2000 more than an ICE Camry) paid for itself in as little as a couple of years (if I recall correctly). Hybrids are the way to go right now, not pure electrics.

Jerry dycus
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Jerry dycus   6/18/2012 6:05:02 PM
Dave,

1000 lb composite cars would most likely not pass any safety standards, thus, the overweight vehicles we have now.

------------  And you know this how?  How many cars can hit a brick wall and the driver walk away?  Yet F1's do this, No?   Fact is you just  don't know, biased as your post shows with little knowledge.


Dave
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Dave   6/19/2012 10:20:54 AM
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Jerry,

Lightweight racing cars don't race against 7000 lb SUVs. When an F1 car hits a wall, it is most likely at an angle, not head-on. That wall is also not traveling at any speed (opposite direction), as would be an SUV. Again, it is very unlikely that as long as there are heavy vehicles on the road, there will be any 1000-lb cars that are considered "safe" enough to be released to the public. Ask any automotive engineer who deals with safety if you don't believe me.

Jerry dycus
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Jerry dycus   6/19/2012 12:45:51 PM
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  Dave, that is your opinion and have not put up anything to prove it.  You know little from your post about safety.

Since composites are 3-5x's as strong as steel/lb it really isn't hard to design one that equals a midsize car, the safest vehicle out there.

What about the Kei cars of Japan which has the lowest death rate there despite only being 1k lbs?  There are many aspects of safety which you seem ignorant of.  Maybe try learning something or ask questions instead of spouting opinions which have little facts other than bigger is better which is a lie. Afterall SUV's have about the worst death rate kind of puts your opinion where it belongs.

  At 200mph is more than a car and SUV combined speed.

  Please tell me which car hitting a 7000lb SUV head on at 120 mph closing speed will survive?  Another straw man as you have no facts.

   And I design car safety systems, You?

Dave
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Dave   6/19/2012 2:56:16 PM
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Jerry,

  I ask that you try to design a carbon fiber car that will sell for $25,000. Good luck with that! Also, the average weight of cars in Japan is most likely far less than that of vehicles in the US, so safety records there are of little value to me. However, I am certainly a "lighter is better" advocate but I am also a realist and I can assure you that there will be no reasonably-priced 1000 lb (4-wheel) vehicles on the road within the next 10 years. Mazda is planning to introduce a new 2200 lb MX5, next year and I will be first in line to test-drive one. I am a sports car enthusiest who is also involved in manufacturing (for more than 30 years).

 

Jerry dycus
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Jerry dycus   6/19/2012 6:42:21 PM
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  Dave,  this is an example of your narrow thinking. 

   Why would one use CF?  Why would you assume one would use CF?  Or just another straw man?

 And I have a 1000lb EV sortswagon made in composites body/chassis just like the most expensive sportscars like Ferrari, McLaren except I accept a 5% weight pentalty of 10 lbs or so.  Yet my body/chassis only weighs 235lbs and easily far stronger than a steel car without using a single strand of CF vs 550lbs for a steel unibody.  And soon hopefully will be into productionm in about a yr.

With it's low CG of 8'', 4'' lower than a Corvettes, it'll outhandle 99.9% of other cars once set up.

It's also many x's more stiff than a steel car improving handling again.

So maybe you should open your mind a little.  

Dave
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Dave   6/19/2012 7:31:11 PM
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Jerry,

I guess the proof is in the pudding, as we old-timers say. Let's see what kind of pricing you can end up with. Keep the cost to the consumer at less than $30K and I will be a believer.Heck, I may buy one for myself!

Jerry dycus
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Re: Overpriced, tech EV's
Jerry dycus   6/20/2012 10:06:25 AM
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  My plans are for under $15k list FOB with most costs well understood.  For me it's little more than a 14' boat production wise and been producing various composite structures for 4 decades, thus I'm an old timer too.

  I can do this because most of the tech I use is 3-10 decades old thus avoid the cost of new tech.

  If done in real mass production it could sell for $11k or so.   The body/chassis materials/labor is well under $2k easily competive with steel especially as the battery, EV drive can be far smaller, saving more.  KIS  

GlennA
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Advertising costs ?
GlennA   6/20/2012 10:13:03 AM
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Jerry dycus;  I know this is a tangent, but what about advertising costs ?  How much would GM or Ford or Chrysler add to the pricing spreadsheet to produce the splashy advertising for your design ?

Does anyone on this blog know how much of the retail price of a car is from advertising costs ?

Jerry dycus
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Re: Advertising costs ?
Jerry dycus   6/20/2012 10:40:16 PM
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  Advertise?   I have people beating down my door for them as it sells itself.  I could sell 100 in a week if I had them to sell.   Other than websites no advertising other than various records, stunts to get it for free.

 But try to find startup money without giving up all control to the VC's, Vulture capitalists like those who ran Aptera into the ground, killing a great 300mpg EV/hybrid.  So I'm having to fund it myself.  My home is for sale and with that I can put it into limited production.

Mine really is just a more conventional looking version of the Aptera before the VC's got ahold of and 'improved' it to death.  Of course they took the money and ran.

Big auto would never build a 50 yr car that doesn't rust of cost much and uses common low cost parts owners can find most anywhere instead of buying them at 20x's cost most car companies charge for parts.  It's what is called disrputive technology.

GM could build their Ultralite Showcar in medium tech composites with fast exchangable rear drive units either gas or electric if they wanted which is similar to mine other than 2 more seats and 1 more rear wheel.

I started 2 front, one rear wheel MC  to beat the $10million needed to meet Fed regulations for cars that big auto uses to keep start ups from starting. But as I built, used them I came to find designed right they can outhandle most anything.

GlennA
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Re: Advertising costs / profit margin
GlennA   6/21/2012 8:51:28 AM
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Jerry dycus;  Maybe part of it is the venture capitalists don't think they can make $1,000.000.00 profit in the first year from your design.  Because they are in it for the return on investment.

I think T-Rex is making a prototype E-Rex.  Supposedly a motorcycle-tricycle with 2 wheels up front and electric instead of the Kawasaki motorcycle engine.  But they have no plans to sell the electric version, yet.

The crash safety and other regulations and testing are more stringent and costly for a car vs. a motorcycle.  So an existing car body design could be cheaper to convert to electric than a fresh slate.

A quick internet search showed the Electric Woody.  Do you have a web site for your current design ?

Jerry dycus
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Re: Advertising costs / profit margin
Jerry dycus   6/21/2012 9:49:28 AM
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  So you found my 20 yr old first EV done in wood/epoxy!!  Funky isn't it. Yet it ran for yrs for $2/week in all costs.  It did total a compact car that rearended me at 25mph.  I walked away unhurt and only cost $40 to get back on the road.  It was designed to rise when hit so the hitting car slid under it, vectoring the forces away from me.  The pics are after the accident.

Google freedomev and click images and the black vehicle is my body/chassis with wheels stuck where needed.

I'll get a website up when I've got it closer to selling it.

No an existing design is not cheaper as they need far more EV drive, battery plus the new car cost.

The T-Rex is a bad joke, badly designed with terrible CG placement and way too costly. Looks cool though but not practical.  Mine is an enclosed sportwagon that is less that 50% it's cost and 5x's as eff with useful cargo room.  Plus one doesn't have to be an acrobat to get in and out of.

One VC offered me a $10/hr job at their factory for my design!!  So please don't give me the VC is great line, BTDT.  His contract basically would have me signing away all my designs for life as it was written.   Needless to say I told him where to put it.  I don't mind them making a profit but they want it all and more.

Luckily new capital sources like Kickstarter are filling in the gap as is self funding.

 

GlennA
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market shake-out
GlennA   6/21/2012 10:09:22 AM
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Jerry dycus;  I watch the EV market intermittently.  The E-Rex was an interesting article, but I have no idea how practical, or impractical it might be.  I saw the Aptera and thought it looked interesting, but only available in California, and now not at all.  And I think the RAV-4 all-electric is initially available in Calirornia only.  Many years ago I bought plans for an electric adaptable TriMuter.  It would have required a better workshop and better fiberglassing skills than I have.

jackiecox
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Re: Advertising costs / profit margin
jackiecox   6/27/2012 8:41:46 PM
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Its fun to watch the battery operated helicopters, in our shopping centers, and easy to think it could be enlarged,,,,,,unless you get into the matter of scale considering frequencies, and amplitudes, materials, processes, designs, etc etc, to accomplish the seemingly same work, where the subject to be moved and controlled weighs a few tons, then the problem of scale cpmes to light, and its many variables, few have the patience to master. one of the last, if not the greatest,The last really great scientific team 50 years in development, were the shuttle 2 engineering design team, designing and building shuttle 1. capable of leaving earths magnetosphere, moving independently, servicing chandra, hubble and space station, then as suddenly as it appeared they were dismantled, their budget going to inner city social services, or so-called privatization, like spacex and elon musk, the iron man, in the movie, displaying him along with other marvel science fiction, that it has become. sad to watch america destroyed, by executive order and affirmative action, but I lived here before free trde, afirmative action, and occupation by criminals, when our independent america, making what we consumed, exporting to the world with jobs for all, accrued taxation filling our treasuries as we helped the world to a better place in time. Now I watch our treasuries looted, free trade eliminating accrued taxation used to support our infrastructure, and wonder how on earth a senate and congress, can assist this man destroying our country, on purpose---I am not a troll---I simply voted for John McCain, as did our majorityof individual voters, but the 2008 ACORN new polling stations committed our nations only known really big election fraud, and with the unsurper in power there is no one to prosecute him, as he prepares for the next election fraud, simultaneously china, a communist country enslaves its citizens using free trade as an economic weapon to take our companies from us and shutter our small family business economy, with its super slave goods stores, I watch the walton family take what 30 % of our entire domestic workforce earn, and see what slavery does to all free nations on earth who fall for free trade, eliminating import taxation that was put in place to protect us from slavery, while insuring our independence. McCain was gonna end affirmative action, Palin was gonna end lobbies, who stuff a few million inn each corrupt senator and congressman to look the other way allowing slavery to enter our nation, while we sit by and watch our nation decline continually downward, Our Rights taken from us by the Lawyers, Judges, lobbies, politicians, I am angry, but apparantly not as angry as MS 13, or the worlds youth, when faced without hope, become determined to end its very source---and they will---one way or another

GlennA
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Chinese (American) Technology
GlennA   6/6/2012 8:44:36 AM
So the Chinese electric car technology is not advancing faster than American technology.  Maybe because it is actually American technology transplanted to China ?

Watashi
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Re: Chinese (American) Technology
Watashi   6/7/2012 2:25:43 PM
Chinese "engineers" don't do so well when they don't have a US or Russian design to reverse engineer.

ScotCan
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Re: Chinese (American) Technology
ScotCan   6/7/2012 2:44:53 PM
Oh come on now! The Chinese do not need to reverse engineer anything any more than Americans. The idea that success can only stem from the US is nonsense...the British helicopter BERP rotors is proof of that! Curiously enough there is very little reporting in this magazine on what the Brits are doing(or for that matter the Europeans) where EV's are concerned. In this age of globalization one would expect less Americentric smugness...the real problem with EV's is that scaling up to autos was too big a jump....E-Scooters work just fine because at that scale and weight, the batteries can manage using simple controllers.

Watashi
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Re: Chinese (American) Technology
Watashi   6/7/2012 2:50:45 PM
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Mea Culpa - I should have said "Western" as I did in a later post.  I do appreciate Brit technology prowess (and not just because I work for a brit owned company).

I also recall some recent Aussie complaints about Chinese IP theft.

Rob Spiegel
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Incentive may not be strong enough
Rob Spiegel   6/6/2012 9:13:15 AM
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Another block to the development of a real market for EVs is the cost of oil. The prevailing thought was that rising oil prices would spur consumer interest in EVs and also make them more affordable. But technological advances in obtaining oil may keep oil at a low enough price that the EV won't be able to earn back its high cost. Add to that the improvements in internal combustion engines and the EV may not look so great.

GlennA
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
GlennA   6/6/2012 9:33:20 AM
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Rob Spiegel;  Yes.  The (rising) cost of oil and gasoline does make hybrids and EV's more feasible.  Also, as oil prices increase, reserves that are more difficult / expensive to produce become profitable.  The oil companies are few in number, and vertically integrated, which makes it easier to manipulate expenses and prices.  The game is to maximize profits, but not so much as to lose the market to EV's.  Is it a coincidence that gasoline prices seem to increase until the economy stalls, and hybrid and EV sales increase, and then the price of gasoline drops ?  The oil companies will 'charge what the market will bear'.  And those who will disagree should review their Econ 101 notes about Markets and Monopoly's.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
Rob Spiegel   6/6/2012 9:44:26 AM
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Good points, GlennA. One pattern I've seen over the decades is that high oil costs spur exploration and technology development (such as horizontal drilling) to get to more oil. Once the new sources of oil come on line, the price goes down again. These technology developments may help make North America energy independent in the next 10 to 15 years. That's a development I never expected to see. Of course, a lot of that move to energy independence will come from natural gas.

Sport
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
Sport   6/7/2012 10:37:12 AM
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I don't think I believe in the oil company conspiracy just yet.  Not that it couldn't happen.

In my feeble opinion, the fundemental problem with EV is the battery.  It takes (x) energy to move (y) mass from point (a) to point (b).  The amount of energy stored in a gas tank far exceeds the energy stored in any comparably sized battery, even given the relatively low efficiency of the ICE. (Less than 40% at best).

Batteries need to have a technological break through before they compete well with the ICE.

EV's are also not the "Green" device eveyone is hoping for.  The power used to charge them comes primarily from coal fired plants.  I also expect to see a lot of battery components in land fills in the next few years as these batteries out live their usefulness.  I don't really know how much will be mitigated in the recycling process.  Not to mention all the environmental damage done in the REO extraction process.

Charles Murray
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
Charles Murray   6/7/2012 6:49:40 PM
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I agree, Sport. I'm not a conspiracy buff, but the idea of collusion wouldn't shock me. At the moment, the lack of a high-energy battery makes collusion less necessary.  

Sport
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
Sport   6/8/2012 7:38:05 AM
Thanks Charles.  I certainly have no reason to believe big oil has any need of collusion from a technical perspective at this time either.  Batteries are only part of the problem however.  For the most part, coal, oil, natural gas, are all used to charge those batteries.  A fundemental power source that creates zero or near zero emissions is probably the most important step.  Wind and solar are just not very practical in their current form.  These are only supplemental.  (I'm not saying we shouldn't use them...)

I am hopeful the big energy companies will have the resources to develop this fundemental power source whatever it may be.  Right now, I think the best option is nuclear.  Perhaps in a new form that generates less waste and can even make use of the waste we have today.  This is likely years down the road if it come to fruition at all.

jackiecox
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/14/2012 12:06:37 PM
Thorium compound, more abundent than uranium becomes radioactive, on a parallel with the radioactive stages of uranium, when bombared with neutrons, Our current reactors could be converted to thorium,  if some problem occured the neutron source could be shut off, eliminating the nuclear contamination problem,,,,

 

but if the plant operator doesn't have his tinfoil hat on, then the solid gold plant walls will not transmit the electricity generated by the solid silver turbine,which generates 6 volts of pure gold power illustrated by the golden blaggler ha ha ha---tinfoil hat mentality, unknown, unmeaningful, negative to any idea outside tinfoil hat---all that comes from traveling forward in time---tossing a wristwatch across the room

GlennA
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
GlennA   6/14/2012 1:11:20 PM
jackiecox;  How much background do you have in nuclear reactors ?  The United States chose to develop light water cooled / enriched uranium reactors.  Britain also chose enriched uranium.  Canada developed the Candu - Canada Deuterium Uranium reactor.  The deuterium, or heavy water, which moderates the neutrons, does not absorb neutrons like light water does.  Although tritium is formed by those few reactions that do occur.  Non-enriched uranium does not have the same neutron-capture cross-section as enriched uranium.  Also the neutron reaction ratio is less.  Nuclear reactors are only possible because the few neutrons that bring the reaction ratio greater than 1 are released seconds, rather than micro-seconds, after the initial reaction.  That allows the control system time to monitor the reaction.  Whether or not an element becomes radioactive is not the prime consideration in choosing it as a fuel.  More net neutrons must be released by the reaction than were consumed.  The neutron-capture cross-section and the moderation process of the neutrons released, and the time scale of the neutron release are also important.  Other considerations include the abundance of the fuel in ore, the cost to process and refine the ore, and the half-life.

And you don't 'shut-off' the neutron source.  The control rods absorb neutrons, and when the reaction ratio is less than 1, fewer neutrons generated than released, the reaction slows, but does not stop.  The neutron source is never 'shut off'.

Do you really think that you are more qualified than nuclear physicists and engineers to decide whether thorium or uranium is a 'better' fuel ?

Or did you already know all of this ?

jackiecox
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Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/16/2012 2:27:34 PM
personally doing more research on coal, I only follow enriched uranium reactors as they continue to advance, using more and more energy, with less waste to deal with,From the data I read breeder reactor series, a later version, more efficient, if what I read is correct, however the discovery thorium becomes radioactive, consistant with uranium fueled reactors energy, when bombarded with neutrons, ending the neutron source could shutdown the radioactive element within the containment vessel, making it a lot safer to use than any reactor using enriched uranium. One, real, nuclear scientist I read, appears to make a soud argument for replacing thorium for our current enriched uranium reactors, whereby many of the assets in place could be used in the transition without having to build from scratch. However since decisions are make in political realms, its doubtful, thorium may appear on the scene untill we remove lobbies from government. I am not a political scientist/lawyer/lobbie/judge,czar etc, so without access to those variables I would be unable to predict if or when we would convert to any such safer cheaper technology. My field, industrial science, has to do with the real world of design engineering,materials, manufacturing processes, equipment, manufacturing,marketing, distribution, warehousing, and sales, whereby i work with identifiable variables capable of being matrixed for direction, if the political realm problem issues are already solved. as they do not fall withing the confines of logic, capable of math platforms,they are alogical,

 

Being an american, working in information technology (metrology) related issues, I watch with dispair as america loses 2/3rds of our factories, while our small businesses are shuttered, replaced with the slave goods super stores, where the slave gets around 3,8 cents for every dollar an american worker makes. The historical perspective that a successful economic model is one where Countries such as america, and more modern nations, make what they consume, domestically, while placing import taxation imports to insure  quality of life issues modern countries had attained. Then Globalization or free trade began with communist countries who in the marxist phase pf modernazitation, saw them enslave their citizens, using free trade as an economic weapon to take modern countries manufacturing infrastructures, along with the private industry lost jobs the resulting lost accrued taxation that accompanies domestic production was obviously ignored when we became chinas big trading partner, whereby many european countries followed suit, all of us are suffering the results of this invisible destruction of our manufacturing infrastructure, the root source of all private industry and economic model where accrued taxation is required to maintain our infrastructure, independence, and jobs where people work. If the worlds goes globalization, near 1/2 are starving nations, the modern countries quality of life descends downward, slave nations produce the goods, and many services leaving the actual slavers with economical resources to retain the quality of life once experienced by virtually all who wanted to work, good food, place to live, transport, continuing higher levels of education, required to work at the domestic manufacturing infrastructure, and continue growth in small family enterprize---Now Gone---whereby Lobbies bribed corrupt senators, congressmen, judges, all pseudo-electorates that could sue for committing slavery which is against the law, and is destroying our nation and all who disrespect their citizens right to make what they consume, taking it away from them with slaves  in slave countries---Its Still Slavery, even if the goods are not made here, and are imported without import taxation which discouraged slavery and protected our independence,now lost we are ruled by a virtual dictator who rules by executive order taking our rights at his pwn will. The protectorate of this New Nobility formed over the last few decades, concealed by the bizare predatory laws they pay to have enacted, are trying to place our entire world under a cartel of oligopolies, are the; city, county, state, Federal, and financial sectors, etc who the rulers czars micromanage, as the presidential office changes into dictatorship, ruling by eecutive order. Joseph stated whats going on " he who votes doesn't count, but, he who countes the vote, counts. Nevada the only state to prosecute ACORN's new polling stations they setuf for te 2008 election fraud, exosed 400,000 votes were fraud. Nevada only submitted 2.6 milion votes, extrapolating this 20 % fraudulent democrat vote reveals obama did not rule, rather affirmative action; naacp, satins deciples, bloods cfips, nabvets, et etc influenced by Mc Cains demand to the end of biggotry in government, ending affirmative action (the vast innercity welfare society whereby affirmative action evaluators loot our social security and all sources of tax coffer incomes) and Palins demand to end lobbies, scared them into the largest fraudulent election our nation has ever experienced. All the ACORN polling stations submitted voter registerations the day before election, disabling verification by design, placing a man in office responsible now for voter protocol, he/holder refuses to investigate or discuss election fraud, awarding the ACORN splinter groups with 3 billion in stimulus, and executive order giving the census responsibility, or election protocol. the resulting anarchy arising by an internet educated youth, magnitudes of literacy above the republicrats, demonkins, one gang MS 13 first forming in san salvador, has almost overnight become the most dominent street gang in the world, while growing exponentially, they operate under strict secrecy, claiming responsibility for nothing, simply murdering anyone who gets in their way of expansion. they simply want to do the right things, and will not stop until criminality in governments has ended. The ballot box, installed in an illiterate america remains because of its corruptability. a time is rapidly approaching when they mature to voting age they will caste their vote with things like crop dusters, using glass, and plastic pipes, and sulpheric acid, fires of unknown origin, unsolvable murders where vacationing youth mirder targets returing home, no weapon, no association, no DNA, nothing you can envision will end anarchy short of eliminating the Nobility, our academic caste system,(academic ventures) providing credentials for lower levels of nobility, who graduate at the ready to join our legal-medical-insurancefraud-etortion mafia, or prison-cases society where more than 1/3rd would not be felonized had they funds for lawyers---things change---quicker than anyone in our status quo will believe until they simply do not arise one day in an effort to feed on common man. Its simple, the common law of respect, a desire to do the right things in life are the basis of virtually all youth, then they attain entry into the real world---anarchy always appears and eliminate Nobility. hey good luck with your enriched uranium reactors, the transformers used to distribute energy to our nation, ha ha ha, just kidding, Don't google MS 13, what you read is not even a half truth, you will nothear of them in the newsmedia, yet, like the Nevada case that took 2 1/2 years of litigation to reach open court where the acorn supv was found guilty, you would have to go th]o nevada and read little published news to discover, or research the court documents, unless his lordship has altered or removed them. bla bla bla

GlennA
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"satins deciples"
GlennA   6/20/2012 10:07:30 AM
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jackiecox;  Are you taking 'man of the cloth' literally ?  Do you prefer cotton, or wool, or maybe rayon or polyester ?  Or did you mean 'Satan's Disciples" ?

I also learned computer programming in the days of punched cards.  But I was taught that proper composition, (spelling and grammar), was just as important as the idea.  And I was also taught to be skeptical of one-sided arguments, especially shrill ones.

You may find spelling and grammar unimportant, but it does tend to lead to more effective communication.  Short and concise sentences help also.  And I have made my point without you having to wade through a ton of blather.  Not that you will attach any value to this post.

jackiecox
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Platinum
Re: "satins deciples"
jackiecox   6/27/2012 8:10:26 PM
programming in the days of punched cards as you state were coded 180 column, 13 row cards, or data storage, for the key punches and verifiers, hard wired boards for the;sorters, collaters, reproducers, accounting machines, printers to hookup the accounting machines to the reproducers and do gang punching for things like payroll, or inventories were very hard, Perhaps you have forgotten, but FORTRAN and COBAL only came into use in 1st generation 1401 systems, as did the high speed sorters 2,000 cards a minute, when a jam, could destroy sometimes more than a dozen cards, that had to be deciphered and re-keypunched/verified, by eye sight. evolving in time and too many languages into the perl and other internet programming languages of today I am sorry you have trouble understanding any of my wording, or meanings, with the words seemingly all jumbled up to you, but, Hey, its like that, no one is the same. Some of us are educated by academia, and accustomed to the formalities of the academic caste system, or academic ventures, while people like me, who quit school in grade 11, were given GED tests, Mine was a grade equivelent of 15.7 years. so they sent me into one year naval intel training, in the old days of DIO's, mine was Seattle, hdqtrs 13th naval district, then when I got a commendation for cuban missle crisis, they assigned me to naval schools, the first OM/IM school for 8 weeks as I remember, then another 8 weeks of Optical School, to study repair or replacement of optonavigational equipment, on subs and surface ships, the instructors said it was more than equivelent to physics school, hard too, 8 hours of class, and 4 hours of study each night, 50 % dropout rate, then a one year computer school,worse, in the transition from electric computers, or many machines, doing the same as electronic generation equipment, where smaller and smaller amounts of energy was required to do the same things, and computer languages began, much simpler than hard wired boards, IBM or International Business Machines, was/is a company that sold to the world, even hitler used their machines to manage his productions, inventory control, scheduling, etc. Most of the people from these computer days are gone now so its little wonder you have a problem trying to figure out things you are unaware of. I got out of navy at age 21, went to work with industrial engineering consuting fims where they taught me one on one, My best trainer was Harold Bramer, from Albert Raymond and Assoc. Chicago.(he setup the whitman candy company) an old man he taught me time study and data development in both direct and indirect labour and the normal chain of commands, or arrangment of work in engineering design and manufacturing companies, like West Bend Aluminum, when they employed thousands of people, now in china, Rolph and Amity leather, leather goods, hide utilization studies in logic, Pauline and Harnishfager, P & H in Milwaukee, Where the equipment is designed around the mining requirements, difficult to export to slave countries, like Manitowoc Engineering, or the worlds largest manufacturer of tower cranes, they bought out Potaine, from france, and Grove Machinery, telescoping lift cranes, and have even gone into big refrigeration equipment, LTV ot Ling Tempco Voight, who made the avengers for vietnam, was fun to study planes or aerodynamics,etc etc but, similar to NASA, Lawyers came into play, I went to universities across the country, studying whatever I wanted.  2/3rds of americas manufacturing infrastructure have gone to slave countries, as we embrace slavery in the things we consume, losing our independence along the way---I did however keep up somewhat with most things still american, and even worked at the worlds first chip plant, Northern Electric, canada where we melted black quartz at 800 degrees celcius, smelting silicon, first used in printed circuit boards replacing hard wired telephone switching stations. first Microsystems, then the plant moved  to penang malasia, leaving fairchild, and texas instruments to duke it out together trying to manufacture the worlds first PC which IBM designed but the patent tribunals refused to allow them to make their designs stating monolopy issues, they used the computer architecture we used to develop the worlds first PC which is similar to a telephone switching station, because each PCi is just another telephone number evolving into a data transceiver, which can alter the data, then optics came along with led's. Yep yer right about the seeming intermingling of so many different isssues, but its like that, if you can't keep up you fall behind, kinda like now, as we become a nation engaged in slavery and shunns the worlds latest instrumentation, because it threatens the status qou's power, as the rulers elevate themselves into virtual nobility---what on earth would they do, if instrumentation capable of storing all the known variables, then resourcing these variables, to avoid misdiagnosis, and wrongful prosecution---seriously the legal-medical-insurancefraud-extortion mafia, given credentials by the academic ventures, are to a large equivalent the concealed nobility, and become placed on the ballot boxes in our democrazy system, ruled by the world class mafia, or a mixture of some 250 dynasties (families) a club you can be a hireling for, or slave to, but you cannot join. Its taken a long time to organize all these dynasties, then along comes the empirical matrix, and computing power, that enable the intetnet, or connecting all the phone numbers together, whereby any kid who can spell, fueled by interest self educates him/herself magnitudes of literacy above our worlds rulers, a situation where information doubles every few years that used to take centuries----only to witness a repeat of history, as nobility resurrects itself, through things like the fed, the kids resurrect anarchy, which will surely eliminate nobility, one way or another, no one is going to punk anyone else out, self claiming to be superior to anyone else, credentials are less than meaningless, they are dangerous,, along with most of the academic system that enables the pseudo-legality of city, county, state, federal, International, tribunals, courts, UN's call them anything, but never ever mention the reality of Nobility, Slaves, and hirelings---Hey guy, whoever, whatever you are, I could care less if you have the mentality to actually read conplicated things as they exist, or call it jumbled up words, exposing you pretense of understanding logic, for the sheer stupidity it is

jackiecox
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Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/16/2012 2:41:07 PM
A neutron source is a device that emits neutrons. There are a wide variety of different sources, ranging from hand-held radioactive sources to neutron research facilities operating research reactors and spallation sources. Depending upon neutron energy, neutron flux, size of the source, costs, and government regulations, these devices find use in a diverse array of applications in areas of physics, engineering, medicine, nuclear weapons, petroleum exploration, biology, chemistry, nuclear power and other industries.

jackiecox
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Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/16/2012 2:45:22 PM
Thorium and thorium compounds, especially the oxide, have the interesting property of having very high melting temperatures. As a result, it is used for high temperature applications such as coatings on tungsten filaments in light bulbs and for high temperature laboratory equipment. It is also used to make specialized lenses in optical equipment. Thorium is alloyed with magnesium to create lightweight, high strength metals. Such alloys were used in the aerospace industry. Thorium use is being studied as a non-prolific fuel source by the nuclear energy industry

jackiecox
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Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/16/2012 4:02:26 PM
It is interesting to read about your existing earlier generations of nuclear reactor, types currently operating, however the idea is that thorium could bypass 4th generation breeder reactors, with a process discovered in the 50's and 60's, abandoned because of unsuitability to make nuclear weapons. China has taken a renewed interest in bring the reactors to fruition, You can google the same as I, It seems safer by far the thorium similar to radium except far longer half life, relative to depletion time in the reactor at 14,000,000,000 years The discovery of thorium nuclear power seemingly parallel the discovery of radium by Madam and Pierre Currie, in its capability to produce cheap long lasting fuel for theoretically smaller, cheaper, safer reactors, however the existing containment vessels might serve to have modular reactors in the containment vessels of nuclear reactors you refer to. To date I have been promoting consideration to temperature reduction partical removal reactors downstream of coalfired power plants to COAL-GEN, whereby they requested abstracts, but since virtually all plants are different, each such reactor for toxic emissiom removal would have to be designed installed and maintained by the plant engineer, of each reactoror coal fired power plant, during the research I discovered a through study that shown gasoline from liquified coal would become economically justifiable when a 44 barrel of oil reached 34 dollars a gallon, and even lower considering refineries could be placed at the coal mines mouth or geophysical location, reducing the cost of transference from well to refinery to gasoline station--- to --- from coal mine to gasoline station. The study put the cost of retail gasoline at current taxation levels at 1.14 a gallon. However the obanomics that encourages higher prices of coal as his vision of america is electric plugin cars, he presented his approach when oil was about 140 dollars a gallon. now that oil has dropped to 50 dollars or less, gasoline pricefixing left univestigated/unprosecuted has risen to 3.50-4.00 a gallon. Exxon Mobile in one quarter made a profit equal to 36 $ for every man woman and child in america, or 144 $ a year for each citizen in america------plugincars.com, shows where more than 400 plugin cars were sold in Jan 2012, whereby current designs nd plugin infrastructures do not pass the economical justification test, for any distance driving, and fewer and fewer families have 2 cars or more. + the cost of battery replacement and many other negative variables not included in obamas opinion that electric plugin laptop battery lithium powered cars would be the choice of the american people, although he has stuffed billions toward the iron man elon musks way, the south african draft dodger, bankruptcy expert trained so in toronto, a wikipedia internet philanthropist electric car, solar panel, rocket designer, if researched is a minimal investor in fledgling comanies he does the hostile takeover preabjudicated act on, stealing the plant, product, claiming it to be his own, losing billions of taxpayer and unwary investor money, whereby he gets IPO's, of technically bankrupt companies, past the NYSE czars, who operate with las vegas ethics.

 

You can read a lot of negative thorium activity as well, but read the details, its an amazing material rediscovery, energy potential wise. Only the future will reveal truth. in reality all we actually know is ifour experiments work, if they do then academia, comes up with some axiomic theory to justify the discoveries, often laying claim to the discovery if they wrote it up first, or think they did, ha ha ha.

 

If we keep dismantling our military I'm thinking the day when our lights go out is drawing closer and closer, we grow 1/3rd of the starving tyrannical worlds food supply they meet us in NYC, agreeing to anything just to gather data for their upcoming planned genocide.

 

Hey, caste your vote with a few dozen molotov cocktails, on the new ACORN polling stations, ha ha ha, just kidding, I really ment to say, outfit your cropduster with glass, and plastic pipes, making dusting runs over the polling stations, ha ha ha, just kidding, I ment the inner city ethically cleansed welfare societies so well represented by the;naacp, bloods, crips, satens deciples, nabvets, buffalo soldiers, government workers unions etc etc etc, ha ha ha just kidding I ment &*&$#&%^%@^&&$.fart ha ha h have a wonderful fathers day, andmay Gob Bless America, and swoop down on the criminality tht rule over us treating us like a herd of Goats, baaaaa   baaaaa   bleeeet

GlennA
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Gold
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
GlennA   6/18/2012 9:49:38 AM
jackiecox;  Re-read you posts before you post them.  If you want to be taken seriously, limit your political rants and check your spelling.  There may be some valid thoughts hiding in your posts, but they are hard to find amongst the spelling mistakes, run-on sentences, and political raving.  Find another place for your politics if you want your Thorium theory taken seriously.

jackiecox
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Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/18/2012 9:56:23 PM
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reaing your well intended suggestion i appreciate the idea, thoughts might be better read by some people if you use spell check or reread your comments before publishing, however I have come to regard the academic caste system with all its grandeur as simply academic ventures who sell trivial data to unwary students for credentials to carry on their field of study, in this our slave system where few will ever work in their field is study, eventually information educational systems will get around to several stages of speed reading, data aquisition methods, and data mining, there may be some gramarical element of education, that remains but few if any will survive in the new languages emerging s as subcultures of society somewhat merge on the one book, sorry if my inactivity to spell check or reread the data proposed here angers you but I doubt it will affect much change in the data I propose

 

 

It is ment for thse of us who are really seeking data to add frames pf reference or additional perspectives to view their interest. I am an industrial artist, I draw spontaneaouly, pretty much to scale with blocked graph paper attempting as many dimensions as I can before its just a blob, educated in the us navyin 1961, for 3 1/2 years, of schools, from age 17 in naval intel, optical instrumentation building , replacement or repair, I studied serious physicts for 6 months in tandem with available manufacturing machine shop equipment, then a one year computer school back in the day of cobal/fortran and and IBMs first generation electronic comouters 1401 systems used un conjunction with the keypunch, verfifier, sorter, collator, reproducer, accounting machines, and high speed printers or hand wired electric computers, which used the same logic, systems design, as networking enguneers do today. I got out and went to work for industrial engineering consulting firms, being far ahead of anything the academic ventures graduated,a few consulting firms led me into 14 manufacturing firms time study, methods, data development and engineering design, installing computer aided timekeeping production scheduling inventory control systems, the only thing we lacked was the led optics which came along after the silicon chip factories, which I helped setup the worlds first with Bell Nirthern who used it to replace hard wired telephone switching systems, then went into my own engineering desuign comoany, doing protopotypes for a lot of other engineering design companies ni=ot vertically integrated. I did attend MSOE, who aiuthored Auto Cad, I do work with various and assorted companies, as an independent agent, Its been decades since I did anything but setup companies, I find so-called inventions to be discoveries in a world where discovery is its own reward. The most significant discovery rests at the center of all telephone switching systems, os stacking diagonal matrices both horizontally, and vertically, integrating them into one platformn (virtual math holography) or the empirical matrix, which Watson uses in its ability to store and access infinite amounts of data to resource in finding direction given a set of variables. My perspectives are from the situations experienced over a long period of time. I read your short, virtually one liners so popular, insults with humor. and could care less about the tpos, but hey ! good luck and keep on looking over information based on its gramerical correctness required by you for data aquisition, and may you discover whatever it is your looking for on the internet, if thats why you login

 

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
jackiecox   6/18/2012 9:56:53 PM
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reaing your well intended suggestion i appreciate the idea, thoughts might be better read by some people if you use spell check or reread your comments before publishing, however I have come to regard the academic caste system with all its grandeur as simply academic ventures who sell trivial data to unwary students for credentials to carry on their field of study, in this our slave system where few will ever work in their field is study, eventually information educational systems will get around to several stages of speed reading, data aquisition methods, and data mining, there may be some gramarical element of education, that remains but few if any will survive in the new languages emerging s as subcultures of society somewhat merge on the one book, sorry if my inactivity to spell check or reread the data proposed here angers you but I doubt it will affect much change in the data I propose

 

 

It is ment for thse of us who are really seeking data to add frames pf reference or additional perspectives to view their interest. I am an industrial artist, I draw spontaneaouly, pretty much to scale with blocked graph paper attempting as many dimensions as I can before its just a blob, educated in the us navyin 1961, for 3 1/2 years, of schools, from age 17 in naval intel, optical instrumentation building , replacement or repair, I studied serious physicts for 6 months in tandem with available manufacturing machine shop equipment, then a one year computer school back in the day of cobal/fortran and and IBMs first generation electronic comouters 1401 systems used un conjunction with the keypunch, verfifier, sorter, collator, reproducer, accounting machines, and high speed printers or hand wired electric computers, which used the same logic, systems design, as networking enguneers do today. I got out and went to work for industrial engineering consulting firms, being far ahead of anything the academic ventures graduated,a few consulting firms led me into 14 manufacturing firms time study, methods, data development and engineering design, installing computer aided timekeeping production scheduling inventory control systems, the only thing we lacked was the led optics which came along after the silicon chip factories, which I helped setup the worlds first with Bell Nirthern who used it to replace hard wired telephone switching systems, then went into my own engineering desuign comoany, doing protopotypes for a lot of other engineering design companies ni=ot vertically integrated. I did attend MSOE, who aiuthored Auto Cad, I do work with various and assorted companies, as an independent agent, Its been decades since I did anything but setup companies, I find so-called inventions to be discoveries in a world where discovery is its own reward. The most significant discovery rests at the center of all telephone switching systems, os stacking diagonal matrices both horizontally, and vertically, integrating them into one platformn (virtual math holography) or the empirical matrix, which Watson uses in its ability to store and access infinite amounts of data to resource in finding direction given a set of variables. My perspectives are from the situations experienced over a long period of time. I read your short, virtually one liners so popular, insults with humor. and could care less about the tpos, but hey ! good luck and keep on looking over information based on its gramerical correctness required by you for data aquisition, and may you discover whatever it is your looking for on the internet, if thats why you login

 

thrashercharged
User Rank
Iron
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
thrashercharged   6/25/2012 1:17:11 AM
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jackiecox - you may be the most intelligent person in the world but I'll never know it because I'm not smart enough to figure out how to decipher your misspellings and run-on sentences into anything that makes sense to me.

I'd love to read your thoughts that you've obviously taken much time to write, but honestly I'm not able to wade through the misspellings, oddly placed punctuation (or lack of) and lack of sentence structure.  I'm just not able to make sense of your writings - sorry.  

I'm not angry by any means, just disappointed that I'm not able to understand what you've taken the time to write, and I'm probably not the only one.  Shorter sentences would help.  And please - how about breaking up your thoughts into paragraphs?  That'll help those of us with this particular reading disability greatly.

 

GlennA
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Gold
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
GlennA   6/28/2012 9:26:22 AM
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thrashercharged;  So you also find jackiecox difficult to read / make sense of.  You may not know that he is the most intelligent person in the world, but I would not accuse him of being the most humble.  He does make some interesting points, but he loses me when he descends into his rabid political rantings.

3drob
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Platinum
Re: Incentive may not be strong enough
3drob   6/6/2012 10:12:55 AM
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I only see two markets for pure EV's (PEV's):  people who are in love with the concept and have money to burn, and city drivers where range isn't an issue.

But, here is a scenario where PEV's become viable (assuming tiny two seater EV's, with any viable battery chemistry):

Cities can prohibit ICE vehicles in the city proper (think London that already prohibits all but cabs in the daytime).  Busses and taxi's are perfect electric candidates since they can use infrastructure to change out battery packs instead of charging them on the vehicle (as a fleet activity).  Underground roads and parking garages become easier to construct and more paletable if the vehicles have no "concurrent emissions", and space is better utilized if vehicles are smaller.  Standardizing on a charging station and max vehicle size will also help when installed in these parking garages.  All parking spaces would have a charging station so vehicles would always be "topped off" minimizing range issues.  This would both help with congestion and air quality (the real reason to go this route, not some green anti-carbon fantasy).

Couple that with mass transit where some of the suburb station parking spaces are reserved for the small electric vehicles (with standardized charging stations).  As time goes on, more and more of the parking spaces will be reserved for electric's encouraging suburban use of PEV's.

HOV lanes and toll roads can be free for the SMALLER pure EV's.

If NYC or Chicago went electric this way (say by 2020), that would immediately create a mass market for electrics. Then (and only then, with a mass market) would pricing become an issue and cheaper (but heavier, shorter range) chemistries would then be viable.  These cars could actually be cheaper than ICE vehicles!

This can be done (in fact, I think it's probably inevitable as population densities increase and oil prices rise).  This is probably more likely to start in the east (China) where densities and polution are already beyond bad (and a rising middle class less inclinded to tolerate it).

tekochip
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Electric Bicycles?
tekochip   6/6/2012 2:57:28 PM
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I thought that China had quite a number of electric bicycles, does anybody know if this is true?


Beth Stackpole
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Blogger
Re: Electric Bicycles?
Beth Stackpole   6/7/2012 8:57:24 AM
@tekochip: I've seen a bunch of reports on the soaring use of electric bicycles in China along with Europe and the rest of Asia. Here a link to an article chronicling the trend from the New York Times, albeit several years back. I don't have a sense if the EV car craze cut into their popularity of if they are still widely used.

tekochip
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Platinum
Re: Electric Bicycles?
tekochip   6/7/2012 9:20:02 AM
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Thanks for the link Beth, that was a good article. I put an ebike together a few years ago and use it for commuting. While the bicycle purists at the office sneer at me for using an ebike, I don't see any of them using a regular bicycle for commuting either. The little motor makes the bike practical for commuting because you don't show up at the office needing a shower, and you'll still use the ebike on a windy day when you would avoid using a straight pedal bicycle. Yes, you still have to pedal an American ebike, but the motor will flatten the hills and always turn the winds in your favor.  It cost me about $500 for the parts required for the conversion and I broke even on expenses the first year.


NadineJ
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Re: Electric Bicycles?
NadineJ   6/7/2012 10:58:58 AM
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@tekochip-from my experience living in Shanghai, bicycles are still widely used but more in the countryside than cities today.

SUVs and sedans have really taken over the city streets in big cities.  Although, I did once see an elderly woman on a bicycle put an SUV driver in hs place when he didn't respect the bike lane.

Mydesign
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Re: Electric Bicycles?
Mydesign   6/13/2012 5:07:15 AM
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1 saves
Tekochip, what’s the difference between an electric bicycle and electric scooter. As per my knowledge bicycle has gear and pedal, which we have to use for movements. If the same get fixed with an engine, it can becomes a scooter.

tekochip
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Platinum
Re: Electric Bicycles?
tekochip   6/13/2012 9:51:25 AM
In the U.S it's more of a legal definition.  An electric bicycle must have fully operable pedals, can have no more than 750 Watts (1hp) and a top speed of 20MPH.  States may have additional laws, but that's the Federal definition.

Charles Murray
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Re: Electric Bicycles?
Charles Murray   6/7/2012 7:09:13 PM
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Great NYT link, Beth. Thanks.

jackiecox
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Re: Electric Bicycles?
jackiecox   6/7/2012 9:03:31 PM
a little copper around the bicycle rotating electromagnetic field  creates an anode and a catode, thereby producing electricity, the cost and weight of getting this energy to supply the wheel with power is interesting, its like the alternator, that produces for more electricity than the car can use, other than store in some hybrides, but the battery technology, make the entire idea questionable when comared to the combustion energy, like coal fired power plants, nuclear reactors, and hopefully in the future thorium reactors, whereby thorium when bombared with neutrons becomes radioactive along the lines of uranium, if there is a problem, shut down the neutron transmitter, and no more radioactivity of consequence

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Electric Bicycles?
jackiecox   6/7/2012 9:03:32 PM
a little copper around the bicycle rotating electromagnetic field  creates an anode and a catode, thereby producing electricity, the cost and weight of getting this energy to supply the wheel with power is interesting, its like the alternator, that produces for more electricity than the car can use, other than store in some hybrides, but the battery technology, make the entire idea questionable when comared to the combustion energy, like coal fired power plants, nuclear reactors, and hopefully in the future thorium reactors, whereby thorium when bombared with neutrons becomes radioactive along the lines of uranium, if there is a problem, shut down the neutron transmitter, and no more radioactivity of consequence

Ann R. Thryft
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Moore's Law of X
Ann R. Thryft   6/6/2012 4:43:56 PM
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Chuck, thanks for this sentence: "But there is no Moore's Law of electric cars." As we've discussed several times in comment threads, Moore's "Law" gets misapplied all the time in non-semiconductor environments where it doesn't belong. What's boggling is that people like Friedman, who are supposed to know better, do much of the misapplying.

Mydesign
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Platinum
EV charging
Mydesign   6/7/2012 8:01:50 AM
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1 saves
Charles, due to the increase in crude oil and gasoline prices, peoples are looking for vehicles with alternate energy sources. Most of the automobile companies had started R&D in similar line. I mean vehicles running with alternate energy sources like solar, electricity, air, water etc. Around 2 year back I had brought an Electric car and am using it for my local use. From my experience what I understood is it requires a minimum 4-6 hours of charging for a 70 miles journey. So in between the journey, I have to spend minimum 2 hours for charging, which is a time consuming process.

apresher
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China's Electric Cars
apresher   6/7/2012 9:05:06 AM
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Beth, The use of electric bicycles is an interesting insight.  It makes sense that it could be making an impact on the adoption of electric cars. Thanks for the link.

Noswad
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Gold
E-cat
Noswad   6/7/2012 9:30:21 AM
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The E-cat will change everything. The battery concept is a waste of time. Some form of chemical reaction in a small container will be the answer to our energy problems.

If given a chance then LENR will be the future of energy production. Our way of thinking has to change. The old ways of using combustion type engines and generators needs to come to an end and start thinking outside of the box for newer radical ideas.

We need a modern day Tesla to step forward and to present their ideas.

Sport
User Rank
Silver
Re: E-cat
Sport   6/7/2012 10:48:26 AM
E-cat,  I wouldn't recommend that we bring the ICE to an end till we have something to replace it with.  That doesn't exist yet.

Also that chemical reaction in a small container you refer to is called a battery.

Another might be the fuel cell where hydogen and oxygen combine to form water and generate electricty.  There are variations on this theme where methane is used to supply the hydrogen instead of pure hydrogen.  None of these are zero emmission if you follow the entire supply chain.

The real goal is a zero greeen house gass emission source.  What ever that may be.

Noswad
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Re: E-cat
Noswad   6/7/2012 12:35:24 PM
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Knucklehead,

 

That chemical reaction I talk about is a pure chemical reaction. Not something that has to be recharged(battery). You would just replace the chemicals used in the reaction.

Do you know about the ECAT? Google it and learn something.

Sport
User Rank
Silver
Re: E-cat
Sport   6/7/2012 1:54:17 PM
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Aren't you special.  Your tone will keep me ignorant.

GlennA
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Gold
Mind your manners
GlennA   6/7/2012 2:00:05 PM
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Noswad;  The Rossi E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) is SUPPOSEDLY a cold fusion NUCLEAR reaction.  Most people that I consider knowledgable are skeptical of the claims of the E-Cat.  Perhaps you would like to re-think the 'Knucklehead' comment.

NadineJ
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the high road not taken
NadineJ   6/7/2012 10:53:44 AM
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I appreciate the subject of the article and love the comments but the quality of the article is troubling.  From the title on, it has a very "neener-neener" tone.

If the article just covered developments in China without the "no better than ours" appraoch, it could have been a more informative.

Kudos to all of the comments so far.  The subject of electric cars seems to be polarizing and stimulating here at times.

tomw
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Iron
Comparing apples and oranges
tomw   6/7/2012 11:03:40 AM
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The ICE is a much more open loop system than a battery.  Imagine building an ICE powered vehicle that carries all of is oxidizer and fuel, captures all of its exhaust, and contains all of the machinery to convert all of the exhaust back into fuel and oxidizer.  Then, we will have a fair comparison. 

Battery technology is hard because it does not dump its byproducts into the atmosphere and must be reversable.

Watashi
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Re: Comparing apples and oranges
Watashi   6/7/2012 2:41:37 PM
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What kind of battery are you writing about? The most common lead acid batteries vent to the atmosphere throughout their lifetime.

tomw
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Re: Comparing apples and oranges
tomw   6/7/2012 3:13:09 PM
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Few new EVs are using lead acid batteries, but they can be fitted with reformers to capture vented hydrogen and oxygen.  The mass flow in a lead acid cell is almost nil compared to an ICE.  Just compare the exhaust pipe on a typical car to the vents on a battery. 

Both the ICE and battery use the air for cooling.  But the battery will typically produce much less heat for the same output.

Watashi
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Platinum
What do you expect?
Watashi   6/7/2012 2:38:17 PM
Despite a strong image campaign, China is still a communist nation. One of the hallmarks of a communist society is a lack of innovative thinking.  Not to say that communistists are completely incapable of innovation, but cultures that discourage independent thinking (somtimes violently) breed subjects that fear taking risks and making independent decisions; prerequisites for innovation.

I can't think of any Chinese technology that hasn't been pilfered from the west or Russia.  Can anyone???

ScotCan
User Rank
Platinum
Re: What do you expect?
ScotCan   6/7/2012 3:01:23 PM
The old Soviet Union cranked out better tanks than the Nazis in World War 2, their Kalishnikovs were more reliable than either the Allies or the Nazis equipment. Their aerodynamists are among the best in the world and their computer scientists and engineers are well respected generally. Again if the commenter was not so Americentric statements like the above would not be made...the communist regime took a feudal autocracy from wooden plows and made it into a modern industrial nation and fought a successful war against the Nazis with little help from its Western allies....no amount of American propaganda is going to deny these historical facts

Watashi
User Rank
Platinum
Re: What do you expect?
Watashi   6/7/2012 4:37:21 PM
The American J. Walter Christie was responsible for the Soviet Union's T-34 which was the one that proved superior to Germany's panzers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Walter_Christie

Russian post war advances and engineering culture came at the hands of captured German scientists.  The cold war provided an external 'threat' that compelled the tyrannical USSR to permit innovation in military arms.  That and the extensive spy network of the KGB that stole US, British, and other allied designs.

The Chinese were good customers of the Russians until they decided that they could go into business for themselves.  They started building knock-off Russian jets much to the behest of their 'friends'.  I guess there is a case to be made for Karma.

I never said American engineers are superior.  But the fact is, for various reasons, since WWII we have excelled to the head of the class. There is no guarantee that we will remain the leaders, particularly with this administration in office.  But free market systems and free people will always lead the repressed.  Marxist and tyrannical nations will always be inferior - as proven by the 20th century.

Watashi
User Rank
Platinum
Re: What do you expect?
Watashi   6/7/2012 4:43:55 PM
Oh, forgot to note - The German Sturmgewehr 44 was the base design the Ak47 was stolen from.  Mikhail did improve its reliability, but definitely started with a fine German design.

ricardo
User Rank
Silver
Re: What do you expect?
ricardo   6/7/2012 7:43:37 PM
I can't think of any Chinese technology that hasn't been pilfered from the west or Russia.  Can anyone???

Err..rh!  The compass, the rudder, printing and of course gunpowder, the invention that the West refined to the present state of art for its most innovative and popular pursuit, killing people.

Sure, the Chinese aren't a threat to American industry & innovation.  Neither were Shoichiro Honda and Akio Morita.

 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Moore's "law" is not enforced
William K.   6/7/2012 8:06:14 PM
The whole concept that it has to happen that way is sort of silly, really. The only thing that has been advancing is production capabilities, not any fundamental new discoveries. There has not been anything as far as new physics discoveries. It has only been progress in manufacturing.

The problem is the folks who don't understand that, and really don't understand any engineering at all. Those people have not understood the difference between manufacturing advances and the physics advances. So they are unable to understand that it will take a major breakthrough to have batteries be a lot better.

There is even one published consultant  who is constrantly asserting that the only reason that we can't do things is that we are afraid to try to do them. He really does need to try to fly. That might point him back towards reality.

China does indeed have some very brilliant researchers who may make some great discoveries. But they also have a government that can be very heavy handed in the name of getting what it wants. That may provide some very interesting mixed motivation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
electric cars fall to combustion energy
jackiecox   6/7/2012 8:38:09 PM
NO RATINGS
the unfortunate elements that affect the cost of gasoline, whereby barry supplies his favorite pseudo-industrialist, internet physicist, wikepedia philanthropist elon, with contracts installing the failed solar industry panels on american military bases,for his so called solar city, spacex elon rocket company, hiring a few of the fired NASA scientists, has more or less been given the task of reconstructing NASA, along with the funds, who in the last few years has actually gotten a couple of successful launches off with splashdowns recovering the capsules, like the sputnic 60's era, copying russian rocketry. His tesla cars are a bankruptcy waiting to happen like all his ventures, the normality of giving tax money to bankruptcy experts instead of prosecuting them, or, for that matter prosecuting the pseudo-commander and chief for the very real treason he commits, while he prosecutes others  with all our tax money in his faied hostile takeovers of the companies which lose money continually, backed  by barry who was said that gasoline should cost 10.00 a gallon, instead of prosecuting the oligopolies that are taking america to the cleaners, the epa, disallowing coal mines to place refineries at the mines mount, liquify coal and distill the gasoline from coal which becomes cheaper than petroleum whenever oil reaches 34 dolars a barrel, some calculations were made and the cost of producing coal gas in just over a doller a gallon, transportion, and the retail oligopoly could if closely observed by industrialists make a 40 % profit bring gas to around 1.75 a gallon, taxes for roads bridges, add another 10 % and we would be paying around1.50 a gallon for coal gasoline mixed with ethanole because the mixture burns at a higher temperature providing more energy. Car designs are sort of oligopolish as well, as the wheel size is also a significant variable for increased milage, adding oils to gasoline makes desil, which gets even more milage, requiring higher comression engines thus the reason our freight trucks have desil engines and a few cars as well. Since design has taken on the obsolescense by design,to keep selling cars, and design for function is ignored we are treated like a herd of cattle on virtually all coneumer goods. Ethics in design, or design for functionality has failed in the face of the world class mafia, who seek a one world economy, theirs, or a cartel of oligopolies, that tell us what to buy and then sell it to us, as opposed to keep scientific industrial advances, for industrial labratories, when america had not lost 2/3rds of our manufacturing infrastructure to globalization SLAVERY at the forefront, while americas quality of life continues to descend, without the factories and small family businesses to work for, we are near an idle country, for the majority of americans, either unemployeed, underemployeed, or homeless, as our international companies SLAVERS are raking in the cash like the walton family, who take more cash from our economy than 30 % of our lowest paid workers. Its a sad time to be a responsible american, with criminality at the helm, trying to sink The   "  The Good Ship America  ", permitting a communist country whose goals do not include freedom, but instead slavery of their people used as an economic weapon, exporting our companies and jobs to their land or in our land selling the things they make, while bribing our pseudo-elected government, into disallowing us to make in america what we consume in america, defunding our military elevating affirmative active in rank committing sodomy on the mostly white/hispanic christian military, who are experiencing 178 suicides a month in the military dismayed at the unjustice and sheer insanity ordered by; barry, gates, panetta, who do not serve america, but try to destroy us, for the starving nations who bred like rats, and see america with a hungry eye because our nation still grows 1/3rd of the worlds food supply, they are building their modern militaries as fast as they can, so they can all attack us at once and get to the food supply. The only good thing about getting old is I won't be here to see it all come falling down while the white house, senate,congress, legal-medical-insurancefraud mafia, financial sector will flee to other countries acting out the international laws they are placing for their escape, sacraficing us, while controlling the chinese, russian, etc etc rulers, in a world where the more than 1,000 billionaires call the shots, 400 in america, there is no way to tell how many are simply proxies for the federal reserve factor, hiding the reality a small club are actually in charge, and do not hesitate to murder anyone they feel threaten their stranglehold on the worlds economy. Unfortunately for them they aren't the brightest guys on the block, where inbreeding has taken its tole, and time marches on, while our youth armed with the information revolution are virtually magnitudes greater in intellect, than our rulers, and after trying t get the atention and trying to get our rulers to do the right things are simply beaten back, and trated like serfs, or pheasants, while our elitest are virtual nobility, resulting in anarchy being the fstest growing entiety our world faces, and will remove nobility from power in whatever form it requires, eliminating them from humanities demand for truth in all things, in a conceted effort to advance and use our instrumentation, modernizing all elements of government, still stuck in the elitest mode. The upcoming chaos is rapidly approaching, and its possible will come to pass eliminating the concealed nobility from power, without them even being aware of whats happening, other than one day they go to their desk, and the room is empty, 

GlennA
User Rank
Gold
tin foil hat ?
GlennA   6/14/2012 11:30:37 AM
jackiecox;  Was this rant from wearing, or from not wearing, your tin-foil hat ?

(sidebar:  the purpose of the tin-foil hat is to 1) receive mind-control radio signals from our alien overlords, or 2) block mind-control radio signals broadcast by the government)

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
Re: tin foil hat ?
jackiecox   6/14/2012 12:09:38 PM
sidebar-sometimes there exist more variables than oneliners can address, making it difficult to post enough senseless oneliners to become golden

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
electric car problem
jackiecox   6/7/2012 8:55:04 PM
moores law like the majority of our academic caste system is just trivia, trying to placate the masses, who the new nobility view as a herd of humans to feed on, the nobility degrees have witnessed a massive immigration of economic refugees, like doctors from india, now everywhere, except in india, where there is 1 doctor for every few hundred thousand people. things are upside dowm, the result of an inflexible academic caste system, and free trade or slavery, as it actually is, results in degrading all but the slavers which unfortunately include the vast majority of americans------moore is, and was an academic idiot, in the same league with einstein where if closely studied his only good idea was stolen from lorentz, whoes calculations showed time travel was possible, tossed by lorentz because the formula is rift with axiomic elements and is just meaningless garble. Time is just a word, or unit of measure. The fictional idea of moving about into the future and returning, or going back in the past and returning to the present, fails to note, that each moment another word, actually vanishes as time passes. the unfortunate element of our society is that we are ruled by lawyers, judges, politicians whoes idea to thought is not the scientific method, which puts it forever in conflict with scientific progression, our only hope to survive the variables our world faces as it orbits the center of our universe every 230 million years or so, as exposed by seabottom drill cores, which read like tree rings, ignored by academis and the irresponsibility that is our governming body 

jackiecox
User Rank
Platinum
ELECTRICICBIKE.com
jackiecox   6/14/2012 12:20:34 PM
electric bikes, pedalless, qare all over the web, but the reality illustrated is interesting, battery powered bicycles, without pedals ? must be the tinfoil hat, must remember to wear it when I log in on the internet.

 

warren@fourward.com
User Rank
Platinum
China's Electric Cars No Better Than Ours
warren@fourward.com   6/27/2012 7:47:40 PM
You say "the electric car cognoscenti," but you should say "the electric car consigliere!"  The government has no business telling us what to buy and wasting our great-grandchildren's money on "innovations" we, and the technology are not ready for.  Batteries are one issue, charging them is another, and affording a car that goes a few miles before the bunny dies is silly.

Give me my gas guzzling, SUV-type, road-rage champion any time over these San Francisco whimpy clown cars.

Bless their hearts...

 

GlennA
User Rank
Gold
Re: China's Electric Cars No Better Than Ours
GlennA   6/28/2012 9:34:36 AM
NO RATINGS
warren@fourward.com;  So what is your opinion of NASA ?  Did the government exceed its authority in spending Millions (Billions ?) of dollars on the innovations and technology necessary to get into space and to the Moon ?  How do you determine which innovations and technology are worthwhile  ?

warren@fourward.com
User Rank
Platinum
Re: China's Electric Cars No Better Than Ours
warren@fourward.com   6/28/2012 12:26:07 PM
NO RATINGS
Actually, yes.  They did exceed their Constitutional authority with NASA.  I love NASA.  John Glenn himself sent me a letter after his inaugural space flight telling me I was too tall to be an astronaut, so I have history with the program.   That doesn't make it right.


Show me the Constitutional authority for NASA, health care, social security, proportional taxes (the amendment never passed, actually) and all the other illegal central government power grabbing.  As you can see, today space travel can be handled by individuals or companies.  You might stretch space as a military necessity, and I would agree, so NASA just might meet some of the criteria, but certainly not private automobiles.  Let the States decide.  If silly California wants to go into space let it.  If they want to only allow electric cars that go 30 miles on a charge, let them.  After all, we are the United STATES of America. 

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