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Captain Hybrid

BMW Pushes for Broader EV Adoption With New Charger

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Gorski
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BMW fast charger
Gorski   8/5/2014 10:26:14 AM
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I think the fast charger is a great idea. What I can't understand is why install them at BMW dealers only? They belong at office parking spaces, train stations, malls, etc. This would sell more BMWs.

naperlou
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Re: BMW fast charger
naperlou   8/5/2014 10:34:00 AM
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I think that starting at dealerships is fine.  This is one place they can control and require the chargers at.  The others will come later, if there is demand.  In many cases this may be mandated by government. 


The big problem is that this charger seems to be set up for one car, or at least one brand.

patb2009
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Gold
Re: BMW fast charger
patb2009   8/5/2014 11:16:54 PM
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If my eyes aren't fooling me,  the BMW i3 uses a CCS or SAE Combo charger

which is J1772 compatible for Level 2 charging and goes into the DC bus for L-3

charging.

 

It's the new US/European standard.


Chademo isn't going to catch on domestically, the Detroit and German makers

went to SAE Combo.  

 

Tesla is trying to make their super fast charger a standard but i would be happy if SAE Combo catches on and someone makes a CHADEMO/SAE Adapter.

Charles Murray
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Re: BMW fast charger
Charles Murray   8/7/2014 6:40:18 PM
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The charger will be available to any car that uses an SAE 1 standard connector, naperlou, which would also include GM, Ford and VW. Japanese automakers, however, are leaning toward the Japan-developed CHAdeMO standard connector.

patb2009
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Gold
Re: BMW fast charger
patb2009   8/5/2014 11:17:34 PM
These belong at Starbucks.

 

if starbucks could sell a charge along with a coffee they'd make bank

Elizabeth M
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Re: BMW fast charger
Elizabeth M   8/6/2014 6:11:45 AM
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I agree, Gorski, the charger is a great idea and these should be installed more universally. But I totally understand BMW's thinking with this to keep them local to their facilities initially--I suppose it's a marketing thing. BMW does seem to be definitely one of the companies trying to support greener car technologies. I also wrote about a solar carport they've rolled out for their EVs: http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1386&doc_id=273347

ttemple
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Re: BMW fast charger
ttemple   8/6/2014 1:08:53 PM
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I think that Gorski and Elizabeth should pony up the "less than $10,000" (probably $9999.99), and donate a charger to their office, in support of universally installed chargers.

Elizabeth M
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Re: BMW fast charger
Elizabeth M   8/7/2014 8:01:58 AM
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Interesting idea, ttemple, but I don't have an office, nor can I afford a BMW or to put up that much cash for anything! ;)

Charles Murray
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Re: BMW fast charger
Charles Murray   8/7/2014 6:35:17 PM
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The chargers will get to public places eventually, Gorksi. The dealers are only a first step.

gfvalvo
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Iron
Energy Out > Energy In
gfvalvo   8/6/2014 8:51:49 AM
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If the INPUT power to the charger is 24 kW, how does it push 80% x 22 kWh = 17.6 kWh into the battery in 30 MINUTES? The joules don't add up.

 

fm
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
fm   8/6/2014 9:36:04 AM
It uses new Tardis Technology; more power on the inside than on the outside!

No, actually, i think the joules are in the interpretation. If you assume that you're not charging from a 0% battery charge state (a safe assumption), then this charger can provide a charge up to 80% within 30 minutes. This would mean that they assume the starting charge on the battery when it's plugged in would be about 30%-ish. Maybe that's the charge controller cutoff point of the i3?

gfvalvo
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Iron
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
gfvalvo   8/6/2014 9:41:51 AM
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Then it's a misleading statement. Going from 30% to 80% is not an "80% recharge" as written in the article.

fm
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
fm   8/7/2014 8:02:31 AM
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@gfvalvo, not necessarily. On face value i agree, it seems like that. But in practical terms, i believe no EV should allow you to fully discharge your battery to 0%, since that would radically shorten the life of the battery pack by doing chemical damage to it (maybe the old, crude EVs would, but no modern one should let you come close); they have to design some cutoff point into their charge controller that will stop the battery drain at some low state of charge. The "0%" value that the driver sees is the percent remaining to get to that cutoff point; it moves the goalpost. So, with this math, going from a battery-absolute-30% (roughly) to an 80% state really IS an 80% recharge. It just refills 50% (sort of) of the total battery capacity.

Disclaimer: this is what i know from battery management, and i welcome someone with real EV experience to correct me.

gfvalvo
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Iron
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
gfvalvo   8/7/2014 9:57:09 AM
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So, I get to buy and haul around a 22kWh battery and am able to use only 11kWh of it?

fm
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
fm   8/7/2014 10:23:09 AM
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@gfvalvo, Yeah, pessimistically, you can look at it that way. It's a requirement for chemically-based electricity (i.e. batteries) that you don't destroy the chemical balance inside the box. Completely discharged batteries don't last long.

Consider: you haul around a heavy lead-acid battery in your ICE vehicle and you probably only ever use maybe 5% of its capacity; you're toting around 95% of that battery that will (hopefully) never get used. But what happens if you do flatten it, even once, by leaving your lights on when it's parked in your garage over a weekend? If you live north like me, come winter, you won't be able to start your car because that single full discharge ruined the battery's chemistry irrevocably. It's a fact of life that we live with.

Now, double-layer capacitors ("supercaps") don't have this issue & can be discharged completely to zero without damage; they're not dependent on chemistry in the same way. However, as yet these are laughably impractical for EVs. We work with what we know.

Ratsky
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Ratsky   8/8/2014 11:36:39 AM
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The EVs I test with have the charge manager set to keep the battery in the 20 to 80% range (which gets reported to the user as 0-100%).  Overcharge is as big an issue as total discharge.

fm
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
fm   8/8/2014 12:19:17 PM
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@Ratsky, i had not heard of overcharge being an issue. Are the new chemistries more sensitive to that? What's the failure mechanism: chemical or heat or ...?

Ratsky
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Ratsky   8/8/2014 12:37:55 PM
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@ fm: Multiple mechanisms involved.  I don't know the details, just the warnings I get from the vehicle manufacturer (these are earlyish prototypes).  Explosion and fire are the biggies, but drastic reduction in capacity is something we actually experienced more than once.  All due to SW bugs in the charge manager that subsequently failed to properly protect the battery packs.

fm
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
fm   8/8/2014 4:18:22 PM
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@Ratsky, thanks.

OK, so i did a little searching. Battery University has the following explanation for what happens when you overcharge a LiIon battery:

"Lithium-ion operates safely within the designated operating voltages; however, the battery becomes unstable if inadvertently charged to a higher than specified voltage. Prolonged charging above 4.30V forms plating of metallic lithium on the anode, while the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and produces carbon dioxide (CO2). The cell pressure rises, and if charging is allowed to continue the current interrupt device (CID) responsible for cell safety disconnects the current at 1,380kPa (200psi).

Should the pressure rise further, a safety membrane bursts open at 3,450kPa (500psi) and the cell might eventually vent with flame."

... maybe it's just me, but the (understated) term "vent with flame" doesn't sound like a good thing!

Charles Murray
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Charles Murray   8/8/2014 5:36:54 PM
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Ratsky is definitely correct. Overcharge is an issue. That's why we hear about 80% charges during fast charges. Engineers compare it to filling a coffee cup -- you can put the first 80% in real quickly, then you have slow it down as you reach the brim of the cup to keep it from overflowing.

Ralphy Boy
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Ralphy Boy   8/8/2014 5:21:40 PM
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Speaking of overcharge...

What happens to the charging capacity (in terms of cars per unit) when some zealous EV owners start getting to the public charger at say 5am and then work 10 hrs, plus takes a 1 hr lunchs and in doing so tie up the chargers for 11 hrs?

Just a thought.

But I do like the 30 min charge time. Maybe it could be designed to spit out and retract the plug at full or some other predetermined charge/dollar amount. Could reduce the number of "punched in the nose" scenarios discussed in the posts on this board.

http://www.plugincars.com/eight-rules-electric-vehicle-etiquette-127513.html%20

Especially in the bottom half... It shows that all is not utopic in EV land. And sooner or later the wrong guy might just have had a bad day when he sees someone unplugging/line jumping his ride home.

Battar
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Battar   8/6/2014 9:56:52 AM
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Hands up anyone who has 30 amps per phase spare capacity in their electricity cabinet. The cost of the charger doesn't include the cost of re-wiring the neighbourhood.

naperlou
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
naperlou   8/6/2014 11:33:13 AM
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The effect on the grid is a very real issue.  This is something that is being looked at closely by electricity providers.  Using regular household current is not really a problem.  Of course, it takes a long time.  My neighbor has a Volt and becuause of the length of his commute almost never uses the generator.  He also tracks his usage on everything in his house (he is a PhD and works for a national energy lab).  Fast charging would be useful in city centers, industrial parks, etc.  It still puts a strain on the system, but there has to be some control.

g-whiz
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Gold
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
g-whiz   8/6/2014 9:57:03 PM
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I have not seen any three phase residential neighborhoods and buying a $10,000 charger is sure going to sting the wallet after already buying an overpriced, limited range car.

a.saji
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Silver
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
a.saji   8/7/2014 12:59:52 AM
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@g-whiz: Yes the price is way too high. There are alternatives for this and even though certain apps are not advanced as this its manageable. Seriously they will have to re-think about the prices of the vehicle as well as its accessories 

Elizabeth M
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Elizabeth M   8/7/2014 8:05:07 AM
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BMWs have always been cost prohibitive for a certain part of the consumer market. Yes, the cost is high, but that sort of comes with the territory here. Just because BMW is going electric and rolling out accessories for its electric vehicles doesn't mean the prices are going to be any friendlier on the wallet. I couldn't afford a BMW car, let alone a charger for it. But like I said before, at least they're trying, and for those that can afford more luxury items, maybe it's a viable solution.

Battar
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Battar   8/7/2014 1:39:14 AM
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g-whiz, 

           You don't get around enough, My home, for example, is wired 3 phase with 25A per phase. Most small businesses "spend" most of their capacity on HVAC, and could support one 30A/phase charger at the most before the infrastructure would need an upgrade. 

g-whiz
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Gold
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
g-whiz   8/7/2014 9:51:34 AM
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Is that 3 phase service at 208/120 or 480/277? 25A * 208V * √3 is just a little over 9kVA. That sounds a little light even for an all gas major appliance residence. My moderately sized 1500 sq ft home has split phase 240/120 at 200 Amps for 48kVA. I understand that to be fairly common for all electric homes about this size.

This charger requires 480 volt, three phase service. I don't think you're going to find that in most residential neighborhoods. Quite common in commercial and industrial environments though.

Battar
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Battar   8/7/2014 10:28:12 AM
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g-whiz,

           There is life east of the Atlantic shore. Life whose homes are wired for 230V mains. I've got over 5KVA per phase, and with 2 HVAC units taking almost 3KW each I've still got anough spare power to make coffee. But not enough to charge an EV.

Anywhere you want to install one charger you want to install many, so you do have a local innfrastructure headache.

Charles Murray
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Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Charles Murray   8/7/2014 6:46:15 PM
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Battar, your home is wired for three-phase? I'm with G-whiz on this. I don't know anyone who has it at their home.

Ratsky
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Platinum
Re: Energy Out > Energy In
Ratsky   8/8/2014 11:28:22 AM
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I think my old boss's house is 3-phase.  It's really more like a mansion/compound on 35 acres.... completely computerized automation.  He hasn't sprung for a true EV yet, though.  Drives hybrids and has for years.  Likely main reason is range as he lives WAY out in the countryside.

ragtoplvr
User Rank
Gold
ev charger costs
ragtoplvr   8/6/2014 9:48:04 AM
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If we assume that the electricity costs .12 per KW., then running this for ½ hour will cost $1.44.  Even if this was for 100 miles of driving it is pretty cheap.  Of  course retail would need to make a profit.  Still, there is a possibility especially in high population density areas.  Some means would need to exist so 1000 people did not fast charge at lunch or you could easily overload the grid.

RICKZ28
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Platinum
Fast Charging is a Good Idea
RICKZ28   8/6/2014 1:22:51 PM
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I think the fast charging is a good idea and may lead to more folks accepting the drawbacks to electric cars (charging time in this case).

I fill my Honda Civic gasoline tank in about 10 minutes, currently $40 USD cost, and that's enough energy for about three weeks of driving for me.  That's low maintenance compared to plug-in electric cars.

Trenth
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Silver
30 minutes isn't bad.
Trenth   8/6/2014 5:04:43 PM
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22KW, 50KW charge rate, is about the same power as my 200A 220V home's service. It's not that large for an industrial service.  They would probably need a MW connection for 20 cars at once.   At 480VAC it's about 2500 Amp service.   

I still think it's too early for all electric cars.   They use up the available market for lithium batteries with only marginal reduction in vehicle fuel use over a 30 mile plug in hybrids.  The Hybrid has none of the range problems.  The hybrid has far more control over when and where it charges.  

I hope they are starting to integrate the electronics for Vehilce to grid too.  


g-whiz
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Gold
Fast - yes, but what about battery life?
g-whiz   8/6/2014 9:51:56 PM
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The cost of the batteries is a major part of the overall cost of the vehicle. Am I shortening the life of the battery or limiting the number of charge cycles in any way by charging them at this accelerated rate? Is this something I can do "once in a while" suggesting that incremental damage is being done. What about thermals? What mechanism is keeping an eye on the battery temperature? Is there a control loop or could we see another "China syndrome" like we did with the Boeing battery a few years back.

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