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Captain Hybrid

Tesla's Gigafactory Would Bring Us Closer to Reality

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William K.
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Platinum
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
William K.   3/21/2014 9:32:31 AM
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Charles, that observation called "Moores Law" was based primarily on improvements in the production process, both in line width for lithography and in the ability to produce finer details. None of it was based on fundamental breakthroughs, which is what the battery industry needs. Lots of people are working on different chemistries, but there are a whole lot of challenges that must be overcome, since high capacity to volume, a large number of charge/discharge cycles, chemical safety, and low cost are all requirements. And the cost will be driven by the chemistry, since a great battery using unobtainium would still not be a viable product.

Aside from that, I find the rants against our present vehicle types quite amazing. And I still hold that our inexpensive access to personal transportation is a large part of what has made our country so great. And while we do have problems, I know that our country is great.

Trenth
User Rank
Silver
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
Trenth   3/21/2014 12:04:03 AM
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Wars eat some 50% of our federal taxes. Oil/gas is the only resource we have gone to war for.

https://www.warresisters.org/federalpiechart

Our military is also the biggest user of oil.

Just search there is no lithium shortage

http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/12/news/companies/electric_vehicle_lithium_shortage.fortune/

The EROI for oil is fast approaching 1 or less.  We are using all tertiary methods of extraction.    No one thought we would be stupid enough to sacrifice our water and environment.  all the easy oil is gone.  Now we are into shale oil and coal to liquids, while we still pay big bucks to bury our wastes instead of converting them to fuels.  http://8020vision.com/2011/10/17/energy-return-on-investment-eroi-for-u-s-oil-and-gas-discovery-and-production/

http://www.westernresourceadvocates.org/land/oseroi.php

We have dumped 400 times all the volcanoes GHG into the air and raised CO2 levels to the highest in 15 million years.   We now regularly have sick building events caused by high CO2 levels.  Warming has not slowed, land temperature raise has.   The temperature of a mixed water ice system does not go up as you add heat until the ice is gone, and the volume of ice has been shrinking, while the oceans are heating up. 

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/pip/2012GL051106.shtml Heat content. World heat content is up. Tracking CO2 and GHG since 1960.

Climate change is real.

Not to mention the mercury, heavy metals pollution from fossils fuels.   

6 corporations own 90% of the media, but you don't trust anyone else?   wow.  It's all linked and backed up, try judging for yourself, and come back with specific complaints.  

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

Most peer review research is paid for and favorable to big industries.

Getting tax breaks for depleting the world's resources is nuts.  

http://www.xconomy.com/national/2011/12/12/energy-subsidies-a-historical-perspective/2/

http://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i51/Long-History-US-Energy-Subsidies.html

http://www.thecro.com/content/manifest-subsidy

LetoAtreidesII
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
LetoAtreidesII   3/20/2014 11:01:55 PM
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Yes wars are fought to protect our resources oil being one I never said other wise but as for your ignoring of the heavy metal needed to supply all the material to make a world of EVs it is short sighted at best. sure some can be recycled but before we get it in the first place wars will be fought over the ground to get a 10th of what is needed for all in EV and we will not be fighting 3rd world nuts but China. We have at least another century of readily available oil even though the dosayers keep saying otherwise. I lived though the 70 when we were suppose to be out of oil by the 90s now we have a Find bigger than the Mideast under our very feet As for your links first they are green sites that to say they mislead is being generous. They call normal operational tax breaks for business a subsidy and compare that to money given away to companies not for business credit but as grants, or special green credits These are not the same that is like saying deducting your home mortgage is equal to government paying your mortgage As for electric pricing that is a joke I have roof top solar and can tell you numbers are way low even with today lower panel prices when you do a full cost analysis

LetoAtreidesII
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
LetoAtreidesII   3/20/2014 10:38:01 PM
How is bailout of a auto company an oil subsidy The auto bailout were to buy off the UAW. Besides waisting money on the Volt was a big reason GM was in that hole. I did not see Ford needing big brother. Auto co are not big oil, they are the ones you want to make you evs I am not against EV but they should stand or fall on their own they are not new EVs were around when Ford built the model T . ICE engine were are are more practical and hybrids even more practical they are the best of both worlds.

Trenth
User Rank
Silver
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
Trenth   3/20/2014 10:00:23 PM
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Just search wars for oil

you are in the fringe for thinking we don't go to war for oil.  

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/

Lithium and copper are 100% recyclable, not fossils fuels.  

Can electric cars take the oil depletion allowance?   

Fracking, developed by and promoted by the US gov.

Oil spills, paid for by the people and gov.  

Gov paid R&D for fossils industry is huge.  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/technologies/engines/   and for over 100 years.   

The gov keeps a strategic research of oil at our expense.

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/03/oil-gas-over-13-times-more-in-historical-subsidies-than-clean-energy/   the comparable early stage gov break for fossils fuels are 13 times larger than for electric cars.   

Corn ethanol is a Internal combustion car subsidy.  

Without subsidies breaks and protection, electricity prices would

be: rooftop solar Power: 3-6 cents/KWH
Wind Power: 6-7 cents/kWh
Nuclear Power: 11-20+ cents/kWh
Coal Power: 9-32+ cents/kWh
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/06/20/wind-power-subsidies-dont-compare-to-fossil-fuel-nuclear-subsidies/#ABfIXAl3UjBqeQOP.99 
but who gets the giant gov breaks?????
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-real-deal-on-u.s.-subsidies-fossils-72b-renewable-energys-12b
solar 2.3, wind 12B, ethanol 17B, 70B fossils. nukes 120B$


 the linked articles do a better job of explaining where there numbers come from.

The total gov break per industry are far more important than the gov breaks per unit.





Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
U.S. Energy Information Administration
Charles Murray   3/20/2014 7:49:56 PM
One of the little-known studies of the past year was the U.S. Energy Administration's 2014 energy outlook, which predicted that just 1% of vehicles would be electric by 2040. The study went on to say that half of that 1% would be pure electric and the other half would be plug-in hybrids. The study received little press, however, because it was released on December 27th, two days after Christmas, when media coverage was slow.

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/er/

Charles Murray
User Rank
Blogger
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
Charles Murray   3/20/2014 7:43:43 PM
I, too, am a little baffled by the response of investors to electric cars, William K. One bit of logic I often hear is that batteries will follow the same meteoric rise as we saw in PCs and other electronic products. Engineers know that's an invalid comparison, however. Even Bill Gates, who owns five battery companies, has said that the comparison is not valid and that we have all been spoiled by Moore's Law. In 100 years, the amazing rise of PCs and the Internet will define our era in retrospect. To expect that all products will follow that same growth path, however, is completely unrealistic.

imagineer1000
User Rank
Iron
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
imagineer1000   3/20/2014 6:32:42 PM
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I agree there is no comparison in the amount of subsidies.  So ignore tax credits, etc.  Government bailout credit to just GM was $49.5 Billion.  Ultimate amount recouped from GM was ~$39 Billion.  We the taxpayers are out ~$10 Billion.  And that was a direct subsidy to a single auto company.  And GM does not produce any vehicle that I would buy or want.  Then there is the Chrysler bailout which cost taxpayers ~$1.3 billion.  US corn ethanol subsidies are between $5.5 billion and $7.3 billion per year, and the latter is still ongoing. 

Don't whine about subsidizing technologies relevant to electrics if you are willing to ignore the order of magnitude larger subsidies for hydrocarbons and ICE vehicles (and for that matter energy in general e.g.  dams for hydro, fusion, nuclear, coal - which of course are relevant to electrics as well).

There is a need for electric vehicles.  If you feel they don't meet your needs then don't buy one.  They're not for everyone and fear not - unless someone makes a radical storage technology discovery they will not magically make ICE's disappear - they are the best choice for many applications.  I have no intent of giving up my 4x4 pickup for instance.  But an electric could easily meet 75% of my households mileage needs/95% of the trips in a more economical fashion than an ICE vehicle could if the price were below ~$25k, and a solar panel installation would allow me to reduce my dependence on the large energy companies as a bonus. 

LetoAtreidesII
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
LetoAtreidesII   3/20/2014 5:05:50 PM
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Trenth said "Gas cars only exist because of gov subsidies and protection.
We build the roads for them, we go to ware for the oil, we do the research for fracking, and extraction methods, and give giant tax breaks to the oil companies.
The fossil industry has gotten those essential gov breaks for nearly 100 years.
please get some perspective. "

I call BS.  This is not true

- Roads really I gues the great Roman road builders were all in for big oil.  Road are for movement of goods not big Oil.

- War, The 60's are callling,  Wars are fought to protect safety "people" and economic stability.  Yes we have gone to war to protect oil trade, but do you think if we went all in for EV we would not need to protect sources of say Lithium, Copper other special metals essential to EV.  Most of these are in foreign non-frendly area's as well.

What you call subsidies for oil are business tax credit that all businesses like my engineering business get for R&D, capital investment and product production in US.  The EV marketer get these same credits along with.

- Huge Grant (500mil Solindra anyone)

- Zero interest loan

- Tax free building site for XX yrs

- Huge special becuase we like EV tax credits per unit see:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/05/business/la-fi-electric-cars-20130506

Again I call BS I have proven it.  Give me the fact were I am wrong "Facts, not talking points"

 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Really, Telsa only exists now because of goverment hand outs
William K.   3/20/2014 4:55:59 PM
The truth about cars and inexpensive dependable personal transportation is that it has given the citizens of the USA a degree of personal freedom not found elsewhere. Not that we presently have as much freedom as 50 yers ago, but still we have quite a bit. The second truth is that most of us who appreciate that personal freedom chose to have the government do the things that kept it going and enhanced our freedom. Amazinly enough, at one time our government tended to act primarily in ways that supported personal freedom. 

One very good way to offend a lot of people is to claim that we should not have so much freedom because the current government is so much wiser than we, the public, are. If the concept of being free and needing to make your own decisions is not what you like, I am certain that Mr. Putin can find room for you someplace. SO please stay away from things that will definitely reduce my personal freedom, OK?

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