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Captain Hybrid

When Will Electric Cars Reach the Tipping Point?

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weapon
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Re: 18 Wheeler
weapon   6/9/2014 1:35:39 PM
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The problem with 18 wheelers as a whole is they are not sustainable. The biggest reason why they are used today is because they are heavily subsidized. One 18 wheeler does as much damage as 20,000 cars to the road. In reality, we are better off using freight train plus local delivery trucks.

Fred P.
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Iron
18 Wheeler
Fred P.   6/9/2014 1:21:26 PM
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Why not EV 18 wheeler? One of AREV points ...Engineering is work but it will create the path that will or will not allow evs to thrive... It is certainly possible but like it was metioned before it will take torque and accleration. Off course engineering must work toward making it happen. Torque and accleration is an engineering problem. I am sure some is working on it secretly. I know I like to see it happen. How the times have changed, when I was a child I was told noting is impossibe. Now, I'm very near retirement and going to certainly try just in case no one is tring.

Fred

AREV
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Gold
Re: EVs future.
AREV   1/16/2014 4:23:09 PM
Acceleration is the power eater, weight magnifies the power consumption with acceleration, going up hill is seen as accelerating to a moving vehicle so most of a vehicle's moving life is in the exceptional power requirement arena. That is why Ford is spending mega $$$ to remove 750 lbs from their pickups. In addition to moving, wieght has to be held by all components at static state which is where most vehicles spend their life. It is the same with a person's excess weight - the ankles, knees and hips carry the stomach. The tires, wheels, suspention support every pound of the vehicle 100% of the tim. As with a person the weight is magnified during impact whether it is a pot hole or curb for a vehicle or walking or running for a person. Lose the weight and reduce the pain, reduce what is required to support the weight doubling the weight loss, reducing the power requirement. Bicycle builders understand this because they cannot increase the engine - legs- thus they reduce the weight of the vehicle in this case the bike.

JimT@Future-Product-Innovations
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Blogger
Re: A few things
JimT@Future-Product-Innovations   1/16/2014 12:21:55 AM
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$81,000 will buy a lot of electric golf carts!  By the time battery technology curves mature to where we wish they would be, we'll all be senior citizens living in closed gate communities where golf carts are the primary means of transportation!  You see these retirement communities today.

ttemple
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Platinum
Re: EVs future.
ttemple   1/14/2014 6:07:35 PM
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AREV,

Once a vehicle is moving, the weight of the vehicle has little to do with the amount of power it takes to keep the car moving.  The added weight causes an increase due to friction, but that component is minimal compared to the other forces involved in keeping the vehicle moving.

It is true that the weight (mass) has a lot to do with the energy it takes to get the vehicle moving (and to get it stopped), but it actually has little to do with the amount of power required to keep the car moving.  Cars that effectively recapture the kinetic energy through regenerative braking get back a lot of the energy that was used to accelerate the mass.  A lot of the increased "mileage" of Ev's and hybrids is from recovering the energy used to accelerate the vehicle.

The load on a moving vehicle is a function of the size (frontal area, not weight), drag coefficient, and speed.  The required power is a function of the cube of the speed, so doubling the speed requires 8 times the power, not twice the power.

If you want to extend the range in any vehicle, slow down some.

 

CharlesM
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Silver
Re: Energy efficiencies stated are wrong
CharlesM   1/13/2014 6:09:15 PM
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Mr. Murray, I agree that "apples-to-apples" comparisons are important, and your metric makes sense for comparing power density battery costs. I have never observed energy efficiencies for entire cars expressed that way, however. There are too many other variables. For one, a valid comparison between the EV1 batteries and modern Li batteries would also need to account for improvements in mass density and volumetric density. Also modern EVs are huge improvements to the EV1 in other significant ways. They seat 4-5 people and have usable cargo space (thanks to the above) and they have modern luxuries and safety features such as having numerous air bags. Similar improvements to all modern vehicles are part of the reason why a new Ford Escape hardly gets very much better gas mileage than an old cavernous Lincoln Town Car, the comparison I made.

Also a point I was making is that when you compare EV energy efficiencies to ICE vehicles, instead of to other EVs, my metric is more accurate.  That seems to be what we're up against, no? And as a nit, Wikipedia states the EV1 got 90 miles of range (+/-10) from an 18.7kWh lead-acid battery which would yield about 4.8 mi/kWh and got 120 miles of range (+/-20) with an NMH battery which would yield about 4.5 mi/kWh. So not quite the almost 6 mi/kWh you stated! Finally, the charge losses were presumably much larger for the inductive charge paddle system used by the EV1, so that was an added energy cost that has been significantly reduced.

Separately, it was not I who was comparing a used part "in the $500 range" to a Tesla pack, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're referring to.  (?)  Not sure who that was.

Thanks for your response.

Charles Murray
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Re: Energy efficiencies stated are wrong
Charles Murray   1/13/2014 1:52:06 PM
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You're right that you can't completely discharge the pack, CharlesM. Automakers talk in a general sense about operating the battery between 20-80%. We merely used the full battery capacity numbers as a means of comparing present EVs to GM's EV1, which is generally considered to be one of the more impressive electric vehicles in terms of squeezing miles out of the battery. Moreover, it's hardly unprecented to describe batteries and their characteristics in terms of full capacity. Packs are always described in terms of their full capacity, rated in $/kWh according to full capacity, installed in full capacity and sold in terms of full capacity. For example, if we rated the $/kWh of the Tesla lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide battery according to the used part that you describe, it would be in the $800+ range, not in the $500+ range. But I don't hear many people calculating it that way. The point is, it's absolutely fair to present this in total miles available per total capacity of the battery, as long as we use the same methodology from vehicle to vehicle. Your method is absolutely accurate, as well, given that you're expressing the miles travelled per "used" portion of the battery. To argue over which method should be used in print becomes an exercise in semantics.

AREV
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Gold
EVs future.
AREV   1/9/2014 4:43:02 PM
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Several points.

1) The electric car has to create a market that the gas car cannot succed in. Call it marketing. Make those guys earn their living. As long as the EV is trying to be a gas vehicle it will fail.

2) The car design is more important than the battery. Weight has to come off without sacrificing safety. Power requirements will always be driven by the mass to be moved. There will be incrimental improvements in batteries whereas car weight could be cut in half if the effort was expended. Then the battery could be cut in half (another weight savings) or the distance per charge could be doubled. Carbon fiber is not just for body panels any more.

3) Somehow road use and other bonus taxes will have to be accounted for on evs. Hybrids and EVs are getting a free ride now. I for one do not believe the current cost per mile comparrissons. Seam to be way off in evs favor.

4) Quick swap bateries and mass charging of batteries must be explored. I live in a windmill rich area and they are never alll running. Free wind passing over those blades day by day. 

4) Stop glossing over EVs current potential and not paying attention to their faults. Engineering could save the electric from passing away one more time if allowed. Talking will not make them survive. Engineering is work but it will create the path that will or will not allow evs to thrive. (Unless big briother treats them like coal electric plants and then we'll all pay for them.)

5) Make evs safe. Someone will get "bit" by an ev, mark my words, and it may kill the ev over night if none of them have applied sufficiant safeties to prevent electrocutions.

weapon
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Gold
Re: A few things
weapon   1/9/2014 1:51:38 PM
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patb2009, Oh your talking about 18 wheelers? Those trucks will probably be best as nat gas/electric hybrids until metal air batteries.

Though to be honest, the whole concept of 18 wheel trucks makes very little sense. Our roads are not meant to withstand such weights. An 18 wheel truck does as much damage to the road as 20,000 cars.

It would be much cheaper for everyone if we improved our train infrastructure to deliver to central hubs and then distribute things via smaller short distance delivery trucks.

patb2009
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Gold
Re: A few things
patb2009   1/9/2014 1:34:01 PM
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I was merely suggesting that it is "Possible" to go long haul with an 18 wheeler

by doing battery changes.

 

But criticizing EVs because "They can't do the Hardest job in the business"

is like Criticizing gasoline cars because a Mazda Miata can't haul a horse trailer.

or a smart phone can't run software to print out a 3000 page manuscript.

 

Realistically, EVs will be all over cars and short haul long before they get into

long haul. How long haul trucking happens will be some form of Hybrid, but

who knows if it becomes appropriate, they may go right to electrics, but i doubt it.

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