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Captain Hybrid

Slideshow: Hydrogen-Powered Hyundai to Hit Showrooms in February

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William K.
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Platinum
Re: We agree: 90%+ folks should not be allowed HP Hydrogen tanks
William K.   5/31/2014 10:47:26 PM
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Hydrogen refueling would need to be done by a service technician, not the customer. And there are safe procedures available. 

The real problem with hydrogen as car fuel is in t6he production phase, I think. It needs too much energy.

Trenth
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Silver
We agree: 90%+ folks should not be allowed HP Hydrogen tanks
Trenth   5/30/2014 9:06:29 PM
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High pressure gas explosions are common and deadly.  There are way more cars than places that use hydrogen gas, and way more than that who fill hydrogen tanks. I listed three deadly explosions that happened with experts working with hydrogen. Very small amounts caused deaths and massive damage. The scientist working on cold fusions was killed by a hydrogen explosion, the reactor in Fukushima blow up because of hydrogen.





The pressure in the industrial tanks is low about 2k or so, versus 10,000 PSI in proposed vehicle tanks. These tanks will create much more extreme detonation because of the pressure. They are lightweight, easily hidden and transported, what a wonderful DIY terror bomb, and you think the terrorists haven't already figured that out?

You put 100's of millions of these things in the world and you will see every possible failure. Each one capable of killing 100's per thousands of people.





Then there is the problem with refilling in open air. Each time you refill, is it inevitable that some very small amount of air gets in. Those pumps will be used till they fail. Not by everyone, only those who care only about cost and have insurance if kill your family using those hoses too long. They will claim you caused it.





"there is indeed a whole class of people who should never get near a hydrogen powered vehicle simply because they are "klutzes", unable to do anything mechanical. "





How is that statement not agreeing that hydrogen high pressure tanks are too dangerous for consumer vehicles?

 

a.saji
User Rank
Silver
Re: Probably not!
a.saji   5/30/2014 1:29:34 AM
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@Trenth: Yes true but if the returns are more profitable even in the longer run, I feel it's a good ploy to go ahead with it. 

a.saji
User Rank
Silver
Re: Probably not!
a.saji   5/30/2014 1:18:28 AM
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@William: With the advancement of the technology there are certain improvements as well as drawbacks. This is one of those but there should be a solution for it. 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Probably not!
William K.   5/29/2014 10:45:44 PM
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Certainly it would be a requirement to avoid mixing oxidizers such as air, with pressurized hydrogen, That is a given, and not tht hard to do for the technically competent. All kinds of high pressure gasses are handledin a lot of places with no disasters. 

Bursting tanks would indeed be a hazard, but the propper care and handling of high pressure tanks is not some mystery, it is done every day. So the two fears embraced by Trenth are fairly baseless. Of course, there is indeed a whole class of people who should never get near a hydrogen powered vehicle simply because they are "klutzes", unable to do anything mechanical.

Trenth
User Rank
Silver
Re: Probably not!
Trenth   5/29/2014 2:49:45 PM
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Hydrogen is costly, is an indirect greenhouse gas itself, is made from methane gas usually, is inefficient from electrolysis, and is extremely dangerous.  

The math for a hydrogen air explosion in the 11 lb tanks Toyota. I would guess this car has a similar tank.  Assume that about half the hydrogen is replaced with air, that is a nice explosive mixture at 10,000 psi! That's an energy of around 300 MJ! that's the equivalent of about 300 sticks of dynamite! nearly 80 lbs of TNT. tanks over 11,000 MJ are being planned for trucks. 


"Daimler also makes a fuel cell city bus, the Mercedes-Benz Citaro. It has a hybrid system with fuel cell, electric motor and lithium-ion batteries. It stores 77 pounds of hydrogen in seven cylinders on the roof, which give it a range of 125 miles. " 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-germany-become-first-nation-with-hydrogen-economy/ 

http://www.hysafe.org/science/eAcademy/docs/1stesshs/presentations/Ireland_hydrogen_safety.pdf check out China Light and Power Cast Peak 
Generating Station (August 28, 1992) where air got mixed with hydrogen 
The blast was equivalent to 275KG of TNT, and caused extensive damage at 100 meters! 

Even without air added to the tank, just defeating the pressure release valves creates a deadly bomb! 
http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/feh5/pdfs/FEH_pdf_pp149.pdf 

I'm pretty sure 10k psi leaks would cut through flesh like butter too. Wait till those hydrogen filling stations spring a leak on someone. It will fly around like a fire hose. Even shop air at 80psi has killed people by injecting gas into the blood stream. 

 

 

have you done the math for a hydrogen air explosion in the 11 lb tanks Toyota is talking about? Assume that about half the hydrogen is replaced with air, that is a nice explosive mixture at 10,000 psi! That's an energy of around 300 MJ! that's the equivalent of about 300 sticks of dynamite! nearly 80 lbs of TNT. tanks over 11,000 MJ are being planned for trucks. 

"Daimler also makes a fuel cell city bus, the Mercedes-Benz Citaro. It has a hybrid system with fuel cell, electric motor and lithium-ion batteries. It stores 77 pounds of hydrogen in seven cylinders on the roof, which give it a range of 125 miles. " 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-germany-become-first-nation-with-hydrogen-economy/ 

http://www.hysafe.org/science/eAcademy/docs/1stesshs/presentations/Ireland_hydrogen_safety.pdf check out China Light and Power Cast Peak 
Generating Station (August 28, 1992) where air got mixed with hydrogen 
The blast was equivalent to 275KG of TNT, and caused extensive damage at 100 meters! 

Even without air added to the tank, just defeating the pressure release valves creates a deadly bomb! 
http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/feh5/pdfs/FEH_pdf_pp149.pdf 

I'm pretty sure 10k psi leaks would cut through flesh like butter too. Wait till those hydrogen filling stations spring a leak on someone. It will fly around like a fire hose. Even shop air at 80psi has killed people by injecting gas into the blood stream. 

 

http://www.nctc.gov/site/technical/bomb_threat.html

 

 

 

looks like the detonation velocity in air h mixes is about 2k meters per sec, but what about pressurized.

 

 

 

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/37313/690060330_ftp.pdf?sequence=1 It destroyed their test setup, several times atmos.

 

Some say at 10k psi, the speed of sound and thus the detonation is four times atmos, or about 8,000 which put's it in the high explosives range.

 

 

 

http://csauth.ccny.cuny.edu/ci/cleanfuels/upload/Hydrogen-Paper.pdf

 

 

 

 

etmax
User Rank
Gold
Re: fuel, that's the rub
etmax   5/6/2014 9:01:00 PM
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Similar proposals have been made around Bromide catalyst.

Al Klu
User Rank
Gold
Re: fuel, that's the rub
Al Klu   5/6/2014 1:50:49 PM
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I've been thinking about this a long time....  We don't want this to rust away...But seriously, the byproducts of metals and water is metal oxide (rust) and HYDROGEN.

A common element, Aluminum, forms aluminum oxide readily with a gallium catlyst.  I have read many articles on people running this experiment. 

It would be very simple to drive into a service station, remove the tray of aluminum oxide to send to the recylcers and then insert a tray of bare aluminum wire/pellets/etc.  Then all that would be left to do is to fill your tank with water.  :) 

William K.
User Rank
Platinum
Probably not!
William K.   1/17/2014 10:32:00 AM
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While hydrogen is certainly a low emissions fuel, and capable of zero carbon emissions, it is a logisticly challenging choice. It can be delivered as either a cryogenic liquid, which requires special hyandling and constant refrigeration, unless a signifigant boil-off loss penalty is acceptable, or a high pressure gas with a fairly small molecular size, which is also a challenge to handle and deliver. High pressure plumbing is a lot of work.

Then there is that real concern about the large amount of energy needed to deliver usable hydrogen in any form. Free hydrogen is only found mixed with natruyral gas right from the wellhead. Separating it takes some effort, and is not a trivial task. Most hydrogen is obtained by separation from other elements, which requires a fair amount of energy. If the vehicle could separate the hydrogen from something else onboard the vehicl it would have the potential to be quite useful. That has been done a few years back, and I believe that the conclusion at that time was that it simply was not worth the effort. 

Of course it is possible that Hyundai has found a solution to the challenge, but it remains to be seen. If they have, it could be a real game changer.

Debera Harward
User Rank
Silver
Re: Self-Discharge
Debera Harward   1/17/2014 3:07:58 AM
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But one disadvantage is that it will take large amount of energy to liquify the feul, the cost incurred in preparing these cells are high, incase of damage the cost for repair is high.

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