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Captain Hybrid

Is Wireless EV Charging the Better Way?

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naperlou
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good alternative
naperlou   10/25/2013 11:11:43 AM
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Cap'n, this is a good alternative.  It is espeically nice because the driver does not have to do anything.  I wonder, though, about billing.  For the school, it is only their vehicles.  I assume that the reciver units could have an ID and the charging units could communicate that back when a vehcile comes up to them. 

The more conventional charging units do have a high voltage option, if the vehicle supports it, to charge the vehicle in a short period of time (I think it is 15 min.).  I don't know how many of these are deployed or how many vehicles can support them, though. This inductive system would be great if the devices were widely installed.  Perhaps they could even be installed at stop lights, etc. 

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: good alternative
Ann R. Thryft   10/25/2013 12:58:18 PM
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Meanwhile, eight states including NY and CA are working together to boost the number of charging stations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/business/energy-environment/coalition-of-states-seeks-to-spur-use-of-electric-cars.html?_r=0

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/25/2013 11:55:20 PM
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@Ann – That's good news, I just wish if these charges were wireless too. I wonder why we don't use this concept and implement it at once than having the normal charging units installed first and then upgrading to wireless charging. 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   10/27/2013 9:00:52 AM
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Good to hear.  Being from the Midwest we rarely see an electric car.  I don't think we'll be seeing this technology for a while out here in the sticks.

NadineJ
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Re: good alternative
NadineJ   10/27/2013 4:53:34 PM
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I'm sure you'll see more EVs in the "sticks" once the range increases.  I think it's a smart choice for pubic transit or delivery trucks, like mail trucks.

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   10/28/2013 12:37:18 AM
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@Nadine: Yes indeed and a very cost effective solution for them as well. I think it's the ideal for a small scaled and medium scaled business.    

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   10/28/2013 12:46:02 AM
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@jmiller : Electric cars ? I think there are a few but not sure whether they are in the market. Surely there were some which were implemented for testing purposes.   

Mydesign
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Re: good alternative
Mydesign   10/28/2013 3:34:03 AM
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"Electric cars ? I think there are a few but not sure whether they are in the market. Surely there were some which were implemented for testing purposes.   "

Saji, I don't know why you get surprised about EVs. There are many EVs running in US and EU roads. They are the next generation cars

Reliabilityguru
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Re: good alternative
Reliabilityguru   10/28/2013 10:15:18 AM
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Wardenclyffe Tower on a micro scale.

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: good alternative
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 11:04:00 AM
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"Wardenclyffe Tower on a micro scale"

so what you are saying it it will be another money pit that does not work just on a smaller scale then Tesla's

Reliabilityguru
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Re: good alternative
Reliabilityguru   10/28/2013 11:10:35 AM
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Not at all the technology is proven.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:40:07 PM
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@MyDesign – yes electric cars could mostly be found on US and EU roads. It might take a while for the technology to reach the other countries.

Mydesign
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Re: good alternative
Mydesign   10/31/2013 3:06:01 AM
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"yes electric cars could mostly be found on US and EU roads. It might take a while for the technology to reach the other countries."

Shehan, it's there in other countries too. Some of the countries, which I know are Thailand, Singapore, India, Japan, Taiwan, Honk Kong, Malaysia etc.

Pubudu
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Re: good alternative
Pubudu   10/31/2013 5:54:50 AM
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Shehan, I believe that that is getting late because of mainly the infrastructure issues in those countries. 

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:26:55 PM
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@a.saji – Most car manufacturers are looking forward to come up with the green car concept. I know Nissan came up with a model named Nissan Leaf.

http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   10/31/2013 4:25:16 AM
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@shehan: Indeed and that shows most of the industries are ready to go with the green effect. A good sign at least even it's a bit late to save the planet. This should be continued for the next few years as well since it will save something for the future generation atleast.        

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: good alternative
Ann R. Thryft   10/28/2013 12:07:31 PM
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Believe it or not, I'm only now starting to see a fair amount of electric cars in my area of California, but they're still new here: hybrids are the dominant species of alternative energy vehicles.

Charles Murray
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Re: good alternative
Charles Murray   10/28/2013 6:02:06 PM
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Same here in the Midwest, Ann. Pure EVs are still an unusual site, but conventional hybrids are everywhere and I'm starting to see an occasional plug-in hybrid, like the Volt.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: good alternative
Ann R. Thryft   11/4/2013 12:27:49 PM
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Chuck, that's good news. The last time I remember seeing this discussed in comments, people in the Midwest said they weren't very common.



shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:18:07 PM
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@Jmiller – Most countries adopt to technology slowly, so this will take few months or even years to see these devices used in countries outside US, UK, Japan etc.

 

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   10/31/2013 4:01:24 AM
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@shehan: Yes but at least it's a good sign. Now since they have already started with the time itself they will start to develop.       

NadineJ
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Re: good alternative
NadineJ   10/25/2013 2:02:47 PM
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I think this would be good if the bus is charged while parked in a staging area.  It wouldn't be a good idea to charge while there are people, especially children, on the bus.  EHS (Electrical Hypersensitivity), like extreme food allergies, is very real for many people.

Here in San Francisco, I noticed that our public buses are moving from bio-diesel to bio-diesel hybrid electric.  This would be great in the bus barns to quickly and easily recharge the fleet.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/25/2013 11:58:44 PM
@NadineJ- I haven't heard yet if this magnetic wirelesses charging affect the people in the vehicle. I think it's high time for researchers look in this problem too. If so we need to keep away from a charging vehicle. 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   10/27/2013 9:07:50 AM
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I wonder if people next to or around the charging station would get ill.  If there are concerns abou someone riding the bus, I would be concerned for people walking past a charging station.  All good questions and concerns for a new idea like this.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:21:44 PM
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@Jmiller – I too wonder if this electric wave impacts our human body. As we know our body sends an electric pulse to keep every component running smooth, unless this uses another frequency which does not affect the human body.

 

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   10/31/2013 4:02:56 AM
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@shehan: If so that is dangerous isn't it ? Don't you think this will cause after effects ?       

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/16/2013 4:32:09 PM
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I am by no means an electrical expert. But I have heard of people that are emf or electromagnetic field sensitive. Would this type of device freak them out?  My guess is yes.

EVprofessor
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Re: good alternative
EVprofessor   11/17/2013 9:25:14 PM
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@JMiller, Interesting that you, who are not an expert, has heard of such sensitive people, and I who have been involved in electricity and electronics continuously since 1957 have not. Perhaps it is better to listen to experts, in place of those who are admitedly not experts. In the mid 1980s a scientific investigation published results from overhead high power electric lines which demonstrated that a usage of common insect spray in the home was three times more likely to have children with lukemia, than homes directly under the "Power Lines." I know some older type pacemakers were affected by defective microwave ovens but the new ones are not because of improved design. 

Still Wireless EV charging is not a good idea as the equipment is so inefficient.  We need to improve efficiency as that is why EV are better, let us not try to waste the energy and raise the cost of the system those are both NOT enhancements... 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/30/2013 8:56:56 AM
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I do admit that I am not an expert.  And when I was referring to humans being sensitive t electromagnetic energy I wasn't referring to the hgih power lines and the alleged development of lukemia or other cancers due to power lines.  I was referring to different people who can feel electricity that is not properly grounded or is "for lack of a better term" leaking.

Often in farming you can watch animals who "know" when an electric fencer is on and when it is turned off.  They don't know this by testing the fence but by feeling something.  I too have been able to detect electricity in wires without actually touching the wire.

I can't explain how or why but I can feel the pulse without actually touching the wire.

I have also had the unfortunate experience of walking over a buried electrical wire when it was wet and feeling the energy in side.  Needless to say we had to have that fixed.

I, like you, want to rely on the experts who have had decades of experience as much as possible.  And I agree we need to work on the efficiency of such systems.

a.saji
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Re: good alternative
a.saji   11/30/2013 11:23:38 AM
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@jmiller: Very true. I think there are certain people who are experts on the subject. So going to them and gaining some knowledge will not harm anyone, as long as they are willing to help                                 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/30/2013 2:50:41 PM
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I love your comment regarding being willing to help. Often I have worked with some really smart people that have no people skills and thus cannot pass on their knowledge to others. They are almost too smart it seems.  Everyone needs to learn how to be a salesmen.  You need to be able to sell others on your ideas.  Even if you are completely right and have all of the correct facts.  If you can't communicate in a proper way it will be lost in the shuffle.

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/30/2013 8:57:27 AM
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I do admit that I am not an expert.  And when I was referring to humans being sensitive t electromagnetic energy I wasn't referring to the hgih power lines and the alleged development of lukemia or other cancers due to power lines.  I was referring to different people who can feel electricity that is not properly grounded or is "for lack of a better term" leaking.

Often in farming you can watch animals who "know" when an electric fencer is on and when it is turned off.  They don't know this by testing the fence but by feeling something.  I too have been able to detect electricity in wires without actually touching the wire.

I can't explain how or why but I can feel the pulse without actually touching the wire.

I have also had the unfortunate experience of walking over a buried electrical wire when it was wet and feeling the energy in side.  Needless to say we had to have that fixed.

I, like you, want to rely on the experts who have had decades of experience as much as possible.  And I agree we need to work on the efficiency of such systems.

Charles Murray
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Re: good alternative
Charles Murray   10/25/2013 5:50:15 PM
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You're right, naperlou, public fast-charge stations are starting to pop up. They use 440V lines (only available in public stations) to charge EV batteries in as little as 20 minutes. These systems will connect to the grid on a 220V line and get the job done faster than a wired 220V line, but not as fast as a fast-charge station. 

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/26/2013 12:04:41 AM
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@Charles – What adverse effects does this fast charging have on batteries? And will frequent fast changing damage the battery?

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/25/2013 11:47:08 PM
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@Charles   - Wow it's a great way of thinking, now you could charge your electric vehicle in the same mechanism. I hope going forward we will have these charging stations at every car park, so you never run out of power.

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   10/27/2013 8:57:43 AM
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I would also be interested in knowing if this technology will be affordable enough that the car owner would choose to put one in their own garage.  We are all human.  And thus we do tend to avoid work.  Being able to just park the car and have it charge would be an avantage over having to plug it in every day.  Or keep someone from accidently drving off while the cord is still plugged in.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:12:44 PM
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@jmiller – yes I too would love to have a wireless charging device at home, but the only question is affordability. Can we afford it?

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/16/2013 4:23:11 PM
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As I was reading your comment I was asking myself how it might be installed.  Do I need to tear up my garage floor?  A lot of questions that still need to be answered.  Still cool to think about.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/25/2013 11:49:44 PM
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@naperlou   - As this is wireless charging we need to figure out wireless vehicle identification for billing. May be we could use an NFC tag for the vehicle to communicate the identification and the time to the charging terminal. 

naperlou
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Re: good alternative
naperlou   10/26/2013 12:42:14 AM
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@shehan: That would be a good approach as far as identifying the vehicle for billing purposes.  Another one would be the E-ZPASS or other toll collecting device.  After all, the accounts are already set up.  Allowing people to either pre-pay, attach to a credit card or to a bank account would not be difficult.  The charging devices are wired, so they could use powerline communications to communicate with the billing authority.  The other nice thing is that E-ZPASS is accepted  by many states. 

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/26/2013 1:13:13 AM
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@naperlou – its good if this payment mechanism and the customer account is accepted from any charging location, I think E-ZPASS would match the requirement. Having prepaid top up would  help customer to recharge. 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   10/27/2013 8:59:31 AM
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How far would the "charge" go.  Would cars around or near the station get charged as well.  Or would it only charge the vehicle directly above?

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 10:16:07 PM
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@Jmiller – To what I have heard so far, the vehicle needs to be directly above the charger to transmit power from the device to the charging unit fixed to the vehicle.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/25/2013 11:53:14 PM
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@naperlou   - I've heard that there high voltage charging units reduce the life of the batteries. Most manufactures rate the stranded charging power. Vehicle manufactures need to stick to a standard charging voltage to make this project successful. 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   10/27/2013 8:49:32 AM
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I had the same question with billing people for charging, but I am sure they could incorporate some kind of RFID technology to make sure the charger only turns on when a billable person is parked in the right spot.

shehan
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Re: good alternative
shehan   10/30/2013 2:56:14 PM
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@jmiller – They could develop a billing system to ensure that only people who pay can use this service. I'm sure you can't give it to the public for free. The equipment cost and the power consumption needs to be recovered. 

jmiller
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Re: good alternative
jmiller   11/16/2013 4:20:35 PM
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I understand they can make a way the device won't come on until someone with an account is over the device.  I am wondering how they will develop a system that won't charge the vehicle right next to the paying customer.  An unknowing driver could be pilfering off of someone elses account while waiting at a stoplight for an example.  Not that it's a big deal.  But I am curious how they will control what direction the electricity is pushed so to speak.

TJ McDermott
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Coils of copper - tempting?
TJ McDermott   10/25/2013 3:10:13 PM
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I really want this system to be successful - I like the concept very much.  But what temptation will the chargers be to copper thieves?  I've had customers suffer theft of copper cable (sometimes from live circuits!).  How easy will it for thieves to steal the inductor coils?

Charles Murray
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
Charles Murray   10/25/2013 5:52:41 PM
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Good point, TJ. We actually discussed that question with HEVA. HEVA's position is that it will be less of a temptation than the copper wiring in a "wired" station, which is a little easier to access.

shehan
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
shehan   10/26/2013 12:02:14 AM
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@TJ McDermott - yes it's not an easy task for the authorities to protect these units from being stolen. I think we will have to at least warn the public that these units are surrounded by electric coils and anyone who touches them will be electrocuted. 

TJ McDermott
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
TJ McDermott   10/26/2013 12:56:55 AM
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Warnings don't stop them.  We've seen thieves cut live lines to steal large gauge cable.

shehan
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
shehan   10/26/2013 1:16:09 AM
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@TJ McDermott – The only other possible way is to ground the cables few meters down the road so that they have to break the road to take the cable and other devices out. Do you think they have a better way of protecting this equipment?

NadineJ
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
NadineJ   10/26/2013 10:14:42 AM
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@TJ - It's true.  When people are very desperate, they will endanger their own lives to steal something of value.

shehan
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
shehan   10/30/2013 2:51:40 PM
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@NadineJ – I think it's important to think of the society and how stealing an equipment like this will affect the community as a whole. 

NadineJ
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
NadineJ   10/30/2013 3:23:54 PM
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@shehan-I think if we all really thought about the effect of our decisions on the community as a whole, no one would be so desperate.  We'd take care of one another.

Today, it's a luxury to think about the big picture.  If your kids are hungry, you only think about feeding them--any way you can.

shehan
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
shehan   10/30/2013 10:14:37 PM
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@NadineJ- yes if your kids are hungry you would want to feed them somehow. I think economic growth and employment rates play an important role.

jmiller
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
jmiller   10/27/2013 8:51:52 AM
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I haven't seen actual proof or details but I have heard of people steeling man hole covers to recycle for scrap value.  So when I read this article I had the same question you did regading them being stolen.

shehan
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Re: Coils of copper - tempting?
shehan   10/30/2013 2:58:24 PM
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@jmiller – At times we feel ashamed that we are living in a society surrounded by thieves. Imagine someone stealing a manhole cover and selling it. This indicates that this equipment is definitely in danger. 

Mydesign
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Charging in running mode
Mydesign   10/28/2013 3:30:16 AM
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"The chargers, weighing approximately 50 pounds apiece, will be embedded in the pavement and sit flush with the roadway. Electric vehicles that park above them will be able to recharge at power levels as high as 10 kW, meaning that a large plug-in hybrid battery could theoretically be refilled from 20 percent to 80 percent in as little as an hour."

Charles, great idea. I think it's better to have a different lane for EVs and installing this wireless charging motts will help to charge the vehicle in running condition.

jhankwitz
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Efficiency
jhankwitz   10/28/2013 8:40:49 AM
This appears to be a great idea for this particular application and a step in the right direction.  I would have liked to see how efficient this system is, and what impact this magnetic 'loose coupling' might have on other components in the vehicle or a driver's pacemaker.

RogueMoon
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nice idea, wait and see
RogueMoon   10/28/2013 9:32:18 AM
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I would agree with you "jhankwitz".  This is a nice idea which eliminates a few issues with charging, but this idea is still new and there could be a few bugs.  Efficiency concerns that you mention are worth investigating.  Getting more standardized interfaces and power protocols among the EV cars would help too.  Fortunately, the EV industry is still young and there are only a few models available that could reach agreement before too many players get set in their separate ways.

I would be concerned about environmental issues with the charging system.  NYC can be hard on equipment.  Moisture intrusion, ambient temperature shifts (daily and seasonal), idiot-proofing the user protocols, longevity of the equipment, all of these will have to be proven in a long duration test of the site.  We can only wait and let the data stream in and have the inventors make corrections.

Liquids are easy to pump. Moving large amounts of electricity in a short time isn't quite as easy.  Good luck to them on this.  The results a year from now will be interesting.

shehan
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Re: Efficiency
shehan   10/30/2013 10:51:33 PM
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@jhankwitz – yes I too fell that this might not be an easy task as we might have to face situations where the charger does not detect the vehicle etc. However these devices require frequent testing and servicing to function properly.

a.saji
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Re: Efficiency
a.saji   10/31/2013 4:28:30 AM
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@Shehan : In such scenarios, it s a risk to take since that might harm the other equipment in the vehicle. Is it the original charger or a duplicate ?          

ChriSharek
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EV Movement
ChriSharek   10/28/2013 8:42:18 AM
The shear fact that innovative ideas like this are being implemented (not only R&D'ed do death) is proof that EVs are here to stay.  They are more efficient, simpler, and cheaper to operate. 

For all of you die-hard ICE-ers out there, try filling up your ICE without getting out of your car . . .

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: EV Movement
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 9:28:13 AM
"For all of you die-hard ICE-ers out there, try filling up your ICE without getting out of your car ."

So taking 3 minutes to fill up under the cover of an awning and going 500 miles.  or sit for an hour to go 40 miles.  I will take the 500 mile any day.


And by the way their is always full service.  You pull up they fill the tank and clean your windsheild all in 3 minute you never need to leave the car.

DB_Wilson
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Efficiency
DB_Wilson   10/28/2013 8:51:55 AM
How efficient is the system?  What is the power factor?  California is moving forward with efficiency requirements and power factor requirements on large battery charging systems.  I expect the convience factor will not move regulators to reduce the efficiency or power factor regulations for a wireless system.  I have these same concerns on the small wireless chargers (like cell phone chargers), too.

shehan
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Re: Efficiency
shehan   10/30/2013 10:52:58 PM
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@DbWilson – these wireless charges consume more power than the wired charges as they lose power when its transmitted from one device to another. 

a.saji
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Re: Efficiency
a.saji   10/31/2013 4:29:25 AM
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@Shehan: Exactly, the power consumption in the wireless technology is very high. It generates heat as well.           

jhankwitz
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Slightly Off-Topic Side Note
jhankwitz   10/28/2013 8:55:28 AM
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Apple will be providing up to 1,000 hard-wired electric charging stations in the parking lot of it's new Campus-2 construction project.  The Cupertino Village Board wants them to install more than that because Apple employees are currently plugging into the Village's parking station chargers and then biking over to Apple Campus 1.  It will be interesting how all charging stations get protected and managed in the future.  

Battar
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Very dark shade of green
Battar   10/28/2013 9:22:02 AM
When you compare the power transfer efficiency of resonant magnetic coupling to the efficiency of a plug and socket connnection, it doesn't look so appealing any more. 

LetoAtreidesII
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Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 9:48:26 AM
This is cool technology.  I have investigated it for the equipment I design. On small low power transmission levels it is excellent.  But as alway the devil is in the details for taking this from small scale trial to a truly usable system. 

1>  Magnetic power transmission at such levels can be dangerous to human in close prox.  (or so we have been told for years) The EM radiation from these coils is way higher than anything produced by high power lines and for year we have been told they cause cancer even though  they are 30ft above us.

2> this will require EV cars to be equiped with a reciever coil and electronics.  Adding weight and cost to a system that is already a operating cost comparison loss to ICE equipment.

3> Power, big problem in CA they have barely enough to supply their normal usage.  And they continue to stop Wind and Solar projects.  If another drought hits the west coast their Hydro sources will dwindle and they will be even harder up then 10 years ago when rolling blackouts hit.  No no power and you can not go anywere because your car has no power.

4> Copper, the basis for all these ideas have skyrocketed in recent years.  Were are we going to get all the copper for EV motors, transmission coils and reciever coils of even a million EVs.  People are already stealing copper from houses transmission centers.  soon they will be stealing EV to strip for the copper.

 

These are only a select few their are more.  We need to think about the ramifications of our actions and if it is possible before we waste miilions of dollars on a project that is a non-starter.  We as a country do not have billions of dollars to waste anymore.

 

 

TunaFish#5
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Re: Devil is in the details
TunaFish#5   10/28/2013 10:02:04 AM
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@LetoAtreidesII

totally right about the copper thing.  (There's gotta be some irony in Cupertino & Copper (Cu).)

Reminds me about something I read years ago (mebbe 10 years ago):  there's not enough copper in the world to wire China (to the same degree the developed world had been wired at that time.)

This is why "space" mining will be so important in coming years.

jhankwitz
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Re: Devil is in the details
jhankwitz   10/28/2013 10:23:23 AM
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"Space Mining"?

   1. Time & energy needed for exploration.
   2. Time & energy needed to get mining equipment to the site.
   3. Time & energy needed to seperate ore from slag.
   4. Time & energy needed to transport back to earth.
   5. Energy needed to decelerate for earth entry.

Someone's been watching too much 'Avitar'.

TunaFish#5
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Re: Devil is in the details
TunaFish#5   10/28/2013 2:17:04 PM
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JHankwitz -

I wish. 

But it's either that or -- recalling Gulliver -- turn "organic waste" into copper.




EVprofessor
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Re: Devil is in the details
EVprofessor   10/28/2013 4:00:33 PM
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The technique to safely use aluminum in place of copper for house wiring has been proven and published. And the chinese or others can save money by simply useing aluminum for their home wiring. I have used it, specially rated connections and anti corosion  coatings must be used, but, it is not expensive. 

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 4:19:39 PM
2 points on AL instead of Copper.


1st Copper is a better conductor than AL theirfore using AL will increase wasted energy as heat.  Opposite of making things more effecient.

2nd Mixing AL and copper is deadly if not done right it is a fire waiting to happen.  If done properly it is safe but a # of home fires happen every year from these 2 materials improperly mixed in wiring.

 

EVprofessor
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Re: Devil is in the details
EVprofessor   10/28/2013 6:59:04 PM
Leto, you said,"2 points on AL instead of Copper.
1st Copper is a better conductor than AL theirfore using AL will increase wasted energy as heat.  Opposite of making things more effecient.
2nd Mixing AL and copper is deadly if not done right it is a fire waiting to happen.  If done properly it is safe but a # of home fires happen every year from these 2 materials improperly mixed in wiring."

Sorry, you are not wrong. But, the reported data is flawed.

First, aluminum is less expensive and it is also a good conductor, one simply uses a thicker conductor to increase conductivity. In that way aluminum is just as efficient as copper for wiring.

Secondly, careful attention to detail is required but it is improper connections which are the problem, I have made many aluminum/copper connections and mine have Never failed however I have seen overheated connections in pure copper wire systems if they were not properly assembled. Electrical wiring is no hobby, become properly trained or hire someone who is properly trained. I expect a lot of home fires are the result of flawed copper home wiring. And considering the much greater usage of copper over aluminum the copper is likely the cause of more fires than the aluminum.

EVprofessor
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Re: Devil is in the details
EVprofessor   11/16/2013 5:46:46 PM
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Regarding your point #4, if there is a power outage, you cannot refuel your "Smog-Mobile" becaust the gasoline cannot be gotten out of the underground tank and into your tank without the electric pump at the fuel retailer. However any EV can charge from solar or other alternatively sourced electricity, so if power is OUT, as happened in Japan last year, when the nuke generating site was destroyed, only electric cars were on the road as every emergency generator with its own fuel tank of a large reserve could recharge the cars, even ones at hospitals, police stations, and city hall. But the gasoline retailers had no back-up generators...

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   11/18/2013 9:02:08 AM
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EV professor wrote "However any EV can charge from solar or other alternatively sourced electricity, so if power is OUT"

Please get real>

1st if you compare an EV to auto than for the 60 mile range you are talking a 1 time a week fill up for an ICE.  I personally fill every 2 weeks.  so a rolling black out mean little especially if you keep you tank about 1/2.  An EV needs a charge every day if the blackout matches you charging time your car is useless.


2. Your home solar/wind.  I have 2kw of solar wind combined but that is a 12,000 system so now you need to pay up 12K plus installation I installed mine myself.  Also that power only works if it is sunny or windy I have 1200, solar, 800 wind.  I can tell you from experiance many days would I not get enough to charge an EV fully so on a rainy or snowy cloudy day i guess you would just call in powerless and stay home.

As always the devil is in the deatails it sounds so simple to say just charge from wind or solar if power is out but when you dig into the details you find it is not so easy.  This said with a big enough system and home battery capacity you could get through this problem but now your talking 50K+ dollars.  I will stick with hybrid tech it offers the best of both worlds range and reduction in fuel usage.

EVprofessor
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Re: Devil is in the details
EVprofessor   11/18/2013 4:04:46 PM
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LetoAtreidesII ,Well your comment reinforces all I said, Did you read your own comment? "Please get real> ...
 

As you said, "Please GET REAL ! >

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   11/18/2013 4:45:28 PM
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EV Pro "As you said the typical EV today has a 68 to 100 to 288 mile range on one charge."

A standard EV gets 60 -80 mile range (leaf-75, MiEV-62, focus-76, etc ). so if you go to work and back avergy is 24 each way that is 48miles a day or 1 round trip with a little to spare if you use no heat, & no AC.

So an avg person driving one of the common EV's leaf,MiEV,focus would need to charge every day driving the avg commute.  Custom EV's and Tesla really do not belong is the discussion.

EV Pro "Your 1/2 tank of gas or 7 gallons is about 150 mile range."

You make to many assumptions about my trip. I get 500mile/tank so my half tank is 250 miles, that is 5 days of driving avg US commute (2*24=48miles) which a leaf would required charged each day for. (leaf 75 mile range) nissan site for source.

EV Pro "EV can be charged whenever it is available and for most of the time that is with the car parked at home overnight."

EV Pro "EV's can be charged overnight"

yes but when talking blackouts and outage their is nothing to say you will have power then.  And unlike a ICE were 5 minutes of power can give you a week of drive. EV's need hours to charge take the follow senerio.

So let put 10,000 EV on a grid that is down everyone hooks up their EV to charge when power comes back on at X hour power returns and now  10,000 chargers &30 or 50A of load get dumped onto the grid.    Will it hold or will section go back down or will they roll the power section to section (this is what has been done in the past when power was short (see CA early 2000's)  Will all sections get the 4hrs of power to charge their batteries??????.  Will these users need to wake up every morning and hope their batteries got enough charge to get them to work and back???

 

TunaFish#5
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and then there's the issue of the phobically organic crowd
TunaFish#5   10/28/2013 9:55:56 AM
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For example, my wife.

Jumped onto this organic thing recently.  Fine.

Then watched some more documentaries, took this concern thing further and jumped onto this vegan thing.  Fine.

Then read some more and got scared of microwave ovens again.  (I thought I put those concerns to bed years ago.  Anyway....)  Fine.

Then read yet more and decided she didn't want to EAT FOOD that had been HEATED with microwaves.

Various documentaries and websites are propagating these concerns.

Just wait until they get a hold of the idea of these inductive chargers sitting under the streets:  Don't even walk past the charging stations!  They'll genetically modify the dandylions in your front yard!  They'll make your children watch Oprah!  They'll put toxins in your socks!

(These are the soon-to-be-famous "soxins" -- remember:  you read it here first!)

Funny thing:  she'll still spend hours with a cell phone clamped to her ear.

Jim_E
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I wonder....
Jim_E   10/28/2013 10:27:48 AM
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If I had a Qi equipped smartphone, I wonder if I could charge it by standing on the curb next to this beast?  ;)

listener
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Re: I wonder....
listener   10/28/2013 11:02:54 AM
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Excellent concept overall.

Two questions thought.

What is the overall charging system effeciency, measured from coming in on power line to stored in battery (leavingout transmission, motors, etc).

Will a magnetic field interact with implanted medical device, pacemaker for example?

 

William K.
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Re: I wonder....
William K.   10/28/2013 11:54:26 AM
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Listner has posted the exact same question that I have been asking about inductive charging for many years. Of course it is convenient, no question about that. But just how efficient is it, watts out over watts in? The one statement that I did find about efficiency, about a year ago, was so obscure that I had to go through it a bunch of times to figure it out, and even then it was not really very clear. I think that it implied that of the power input from the AC mains to the output terminals volts times amps was about 39%, which is rather pitifil compared to almost all direct connection charging systems.

What has never been adequately explained is how the vehicle end of the connection link will survive in a typical Michigan winter, when it is constantly sprayed with a saturated salt solution, and encased in dried salt crystals. That mix is damaging enough to heavt steel suspensions and frames, and has been seen to totally destroy the copper portion of OEM vehical wiring on some occasions. So an explanation of how that part of the hardware can be made to last could be a benefit to the automakers as well as the rest of us.

One additional concern is about the weight and cost of such a system, which have not been addressed in any rational manner, nor with much in the line of numbers. Numbers, after all, are what often separate fact from opinion.

listener
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Re: I wonder....
listener   10/28/2013 11:04:29 AM
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Didn't mean to direct questions as a reply to you, just unfamiliar with posting to this board.

benmlee
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NO! NO! NO! and NO! - Is That Clear
benmlee   10/28/2013 11:57:54 AM
Let's get this right, I love EV, and is the future. But this system is not just NO!, is HELL NO. I worked at the same company that did the environmental test of the GM's EV1 charge paddle. Even with that close proximity, you loose 20% of your energy. Here we are talking about energy transfer thru a foot of air! Think of the loss there. Air is not a good medium to transfer electrical energy.

The big part of the purpose of going to EV is to increase efficiency. Here you just lost at least 20% charging the car. Ever few months, another start-up thinks up of this harebrained idea then disappears. They probably realize is not practical. Let's not even entertain this idea. Forget it. Get out of the car and plug in the cable. While you sit at Starbuck for the next two hours, ten seconds of your time is not that big of a deal.

J. Williams
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Re: NO! NO! NO! and NO! - Is That Clear
J. Williams   10/28/2013 12:25:37 PM
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Where was the 20% lost?  Was it lost just in the inductive interface between the paddle and the vehicle or was it the loss through the entire charging system to include the inverter-charger electronics that powers the paddle, and the magnetic losses at the paddle interface, and the vehicle battery charging electronics that rectifies the induced currents then conditions the power the charge the batteries?

You might not be very impressed with the power lost by your local utility from it's energy source (hydro, NG, coal, neutrons, wind, etc.) to your residence.

The EV1 used a standard inductive interface that in effect is a two-part HF transformer.  These proposed systems I'm sure, use a method that employs highly resonant transmit and receive coils.  The efficiency can go up significantly, but will never be as efficient as a well-maintained, clean, tight electrical connection.

Check out these folks:  http://www.witricity.com 

Their system uses resonant systems with matching networks to optimize the power transfer.

benmlee
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Re: NO! NO! NO! and NO! - Is That Clear
benmlee   10/28/2013 5:24:35 PM
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The 20% loss is just the interface between the charge paddle and the receptical. Magnetic flux had to go thru the plastic protective cover on the charge paddle. Charge paddle is just like a transformer cut in half. That is where the problem comes in. Magnetic flux loose efficiency with any air gap. With any charge paddle, you get an air gap, and loose efficiency. You can make it metal to metal contact, but then you got rust issue, so paint or plastic is necessary for protection. BTW, got the 20% number from talking with the designer of the EV1 charge station. Had to ask him twice because I couldn't believe it.

J. Williams
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Re: NO! NO! NO! and NO! - Is That Clear
J. Williams   10/28/2013 5:48:20 PM
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I can believe the number.  I'm sure it was a trade-off between durability and efficiency and cost.  Pick any two.  I doubt rust would have been an issue because I am almost certain the core material would have been some type of ceramic ferrite which doesn't rust.  However, if the ferrite was "brought to the surface" of the paddle to reduce the air-gap, it would be more susceptible to physical damage as the ferrites are very brittle.

Electrical connectors are almost universally the weakest point in all electronics.   Eliminate connectors and your reliability goes up.  A lot.

I'm not a particular fan of wireless charging schemes but I also know well the pains that connectors and connections can cause in electrical systems.

I could design you a paddle charging system with about 90-95% efficiency, but I am certain it wouldn't meet any of the manufacturing cost targets and the users would probably not like the ease of paddle insertion/extraction necessary to reduce losses due to fringing. 

Like everything else in this world, TANSTAAFL.

LetoAtreidesII
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chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 1:59:40 PM
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We are putting the Chicken out their the EV but do not have the Electrical infastructure to support EV's the egg.  We refuse to build any new Nuke plants.  Coal production is being crushed by new mandates (44+% of current power generated from this) and every were you turn solar and wind projects which in reality produce little power <4% from all non hydro sources are being blocked by eviromental and citizen groups.  saying yes we want them but not here.  Not in my town.

So how are we going to power the electric hungry devices, were are all the new tranmission right of ways required to souce the extra power going.  It can take a decade to get a new High power lines approved and installed so how is this power going to be availible even if we build all these great cars.

I can tell you from past experiance from CA's roving black outs a decade ago.  Hundreds of large deisel generators wer installed to supply local midwest power so power could be rerouted and sold to California.  This problem has not been solved it has gotten worse and the west coast is one good drough away from blackouts up and down the west coast.  (they depend heavily on hydro power and are drought prone)

 

EVprofessor
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Re: chicken before the Egg
EVprofessor   10/28/2013 2:45:18 PM
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Interesting to note, that the electric utility trade association anounced several years ago that there is sufficient capacity to charge 200,000,000 electric cars on a daily basis without overloading the Grid.

Since then many more charging points have been installed but even a Quick Charger like SAE Combo or CHAdeMO cost less than the installed wireless charger including the modification of the paved surface and underground wiring. 

I would also note the ignorance concerning the J1772 connection, there is only 12 volts present at the plug until it is plugged into the vehicle. Only then is the 240 v ac connected to the cable and connector making it quite safe. 

In my opinion all the utility "Grid overload by EV charging HYPE" is from the utilities interest in obtaining Grant Funding to finance their needed grid and system upgrades, those should be simply their expenses, as continuing preventive maintence and upgrades due to population growth and therefore a larger consumer base in new homes and businesses.

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 2:55:17 PM
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200,000 is a drop in the bucket and will not even cover the requirements for California, and that # was spread out over the country not putting all the the load in one area of the grid.

That # would state we run out of capacity at 1 EV for every 1000 US Households.

 

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 3:23:33 PM
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"In my opinion all the utility "Grid overload by EV charging HYPE" is from the utilities"

This is not hype we have run into power shortfalls many times and sorry california I keep coming back to you as your are the worst offender of having no extra capacity and will not improve yet want large #'s of EVs.   It is not the power compainies that are unwilling to expand it is green groups and federal regulators who keep stopping them.  They will not let new coal or nuke plants be built.  that leave gas and renewable but although everone wants them no one want them in their back yard.  locally with 50miles of me.  2 wind projects have been stopped in their tracks, 1 electric from old car tires.  2 Natural Gas plants keep getting delayed by locals who all want cleaner power but why can't it be somewere else.  The only reason we have not run out of power yet is as our population grows we have shipped so much production overseas that extr power has covered the gap. 

Remember it is CA that shutdown mountain pass wind turbines because of bird kills, and many other places they are shutting them down because of low frequency noise issues making people sick.

 

EVprofessor
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Re: chicken before the Egg
EVprofessor   10/28/2013 4:19:02 PM
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It is not the Electric Cars, it is the Air Conditioners, the most common EVs use 3.3KW or about the same as a 4 ton AC unit, and that is a lot more common in each home than an EV. Also the charging is usually done in the evening while the AC operates more during the day. (And daytime is Peak time). I have started using a relay to cut off the EV charging whenever the AC compressor is running there-by lowering the peak demand on the grid. The relay is operated by the same thermostat as the Air Conditioner. There IS sufficient time to recharge the EV during compressor "Off-time" in the evening. KISS Engineering makes sense again! This plan saves the cost of another 240 volt circuit breaker as the alternating load choice, by the relay, can both draw from the existing circuit for the Air Conditioner.

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 4:45:19 PM
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I agree AC units are one of the largest residential loads this is why I get calls every summer about my controller sensing low input voltage the whole grid voltage drops slightly.

This switching works great for you but it does not get rid of the underlying issue of not enough overall power.  if people need to choose between AC and EV I think they will choose AC and a hybrid car. 

EVprofessor
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Re: chicken before the Egg
EVprofessor   10/28/2013 6:02:08 PM
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EXCUSE ME, my switching scheme alternates between charging and the major cooling load automatically so both can be acomodated into the future. The electric cars are not yet here (Only 200,000 os a small fraction of the 300 Million that are coming in the next 10 years.) Obvously the utilities need to upgrade the grid because of growth in consumer consumption already. Don't try to blabe the electric cars the grid is being overloaded NOW what are the utilities waiting for (More free taxpayer grant funding?) It is time to cut back on dividends and upgrade the grid NOW! And it is NOT the electric cars as only 0.06% of the automobiles presently in the USA. 

Kindly consider that the gasoline refinery requires energy to refine the gasoline from crude oil, in fact about 7.5 KWhrs of electric power is needed to operate the refinery in producing each gallon of gasoline produced. My electric car can drive over 25 miles for 7.5 KWhrs of electric energy, without using any gasoline but your car may get about as far from that gallon of gasoline. Don't you see we used as little electricity to power the electric car as the refinery used to refine the crude oil into gasoline for you to use driving your gasoline burning car the same distance, and we didn't need to import and burn the crude oil or gasoline refined from it either. I still say it is not the electric cars, it is the failure of the elecrtic utilities who need to cut back on dividends and upgrade the antequated grid at their own expense.

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   10/28/2013 6:25:33 PM
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It accommodates your house but the average load will go up and out off sustainable under current system. Yes they should build more plants but regulators and greenly and local groups keep stopping them. California could even build a solar plant in the desert for fear of hurting a lizard. This my hole point we need to get capacity increased before we go he'd long down the EV path EV is the future but we are not ready yet on so many fronts and blind faith in it will not solve the engineering challenges ahead of us You other gas kW is just bogus run the numbers and you get each refinery requires a large nuke plant just to provide the power

jmiller
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Re: chicken before the Egg
jmiller   11/16/2013 5:02:43 PM
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Incredible statistics.  I did not know there was so much capacity on the grid.  I am wondering do we have the capacity to generate this much electricity as well.  Generating the electriccity has always been a concern of mine when it comes to electrical cars.  Do we use more coal generating electricity than we would by converting to ethanol or other non-fossil fuels.

jmiller
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Re: chicken before the Egg
jmiller   11/16/2013 5:02:45 PM
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Incredible statistics.  I did not know there was so much capacity on the grid.  I am wondering do we have the capacity to generate this much electricity as well.  Generating the electriccity has always been a concern of mine when it comes to electrical cars.  Do we use more coal generating electricity than we would by converting to ethanol or other non-fossil fuels.

EVprofessor
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Re: chicken before the Egg
EVprofessor   11/17/2013 9:36:45 PM
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@JMiller, The capacity of the grid is the capacity to generate . They are the same . Perhaps you need a better understanding of how things you depend upon such as the electricity from "The Grid" actually work. I understand it is dificult to understand as it is technically complex and the utility companies seem to keep their operations secret for their own purposes...

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: chicken before the Egg
LetoAtreidesII   11/18/2013 8:51:36 AM
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", The capacity of the grid is the capacity to generate ." This is not true their is generation capicity and distribution capacity that is why every summer when the AC's are running heavy you get transformers going out from overheating and overload.  This is not a case of not enough generation but to much draw through that section of the grid.  This problem will only get worse as people start putting chargers that draw the equivelant power of and AC unit on to charge their cars by the 100 of thousands.


This means we not only need more generation but more power lines and substations and new transformers all over the nation.

EVprofessor
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Re: chicken before the Egg
EVprofessor   11/18/2013 11:42:23 PM
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The electric utilities do not agree with you, they agree with me. There is sufficient reserve capacityavailable, from the grid, to support the charging of 200,000,000 EV.

Also for every gallon of petroleum crude oil refined making one gallon of gasoline enough electricity is used to power an electric car for about 25 miles. 

benmlee
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Re: chicken before the Egg
benmlee   10/28/2013 5:39:03 PM
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The black out in California we now know is due to illegal rigging by Enron and other groups. Heart of the problem is electricity cannot travel far. When one plant goes down, another one cannot just supply electricity to make up for it. That was why they were able to charge sky high price for electricity because there is no free market. They timmed the plants to go on "maintenance" just as peak heat wave hits. Since 2000, we have not had a rolling black out even once.

As a matter of fact, utility are now worried about over capacity due to roll out of solar panels. There was an article a week back that utility fear with solar panels, they are not building enough power lines since they are paid by power lines they supply. That might wreck their business model.

J. Williams
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Re: chicken before the Egg
J. Williams   10/28/2013 6:16:49 PM
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The problems with the grid that increased wind and solar generation has more to do with the stability of the grid not the capacity of the system.  Paul Mauldin has very succinctly captured what the future for California might look like if steps are not taken to mitigate the issue.  As wind and solar generation ramps up and down over the course of a day, the base load generation will have relatively severe slew rates to accommodate the customer loads.

http://tdworld.com/generation-renewables/solar-will-shine-brighter-smarter-inverters 

Look at the slope of the red line in the graph.  This is the load changes that will be required of the conventional generating sources.  Here are some more articles alluding to the grid stability issues that result from large scale PV and wind generation.

http://tdworld.com/generation-renewables/grid-friendly-utility-scale-pv-plants 

http://tdworld.com/generation-renewables/can-smart-solar-keep-sun-shining-pv 

http://tdworld.com/generation-renewables/wind-power-making-it-play-nice-no-breeze?page=1 

Cheers !

 

DNH
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This is a really bad article
DNH   11/8/2013 3:36:51 PM
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This article is really badly written.

The subject is a really important one involving transmitting a huge amout of power on a vast scale. Your audience are engineers. You need to consider what you readers will want to know about the subject and address these issues in the article, rather than wait for user comments like mine.

You need to describe the technology that wireless charging uses - what frequency? what efficiency? What are the safety issues? How is the energy paid for? At 10KW power levels even a small fraction of a percent of power leaking into the environment is a significant hazzard and waste. I think the safety and energy issues are probably show stoppers unless you can answer these questions.

jmiller
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Re: This is a really bad article
jmiller   11/16/2013 4:29:41 PM
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I was wondering about the health and safety of such a device as well.  I didn;'t know the details and what volts or amps would do what but I think you bring up a good point regarding the need to know that.  I too was wondering how they would control the "feedback" or how any device could control such energy.  All and all it's neat to dream/think about but there are a lot of unanswered questions.

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   11/19/2013 9:02:49 AM
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EV Proffessor you need to have your tender revoked.  Every one of your statements in your last post are bunk here is the proof:  Not a single one is even close to real.  So please get your calculator out and crunch some #'s next time you wish to post a response to reasonable worries about our future.

EV Pro wrote -"500 miles on one tank, must be over 20 gallons." ---- any small car of EV size gets 40-50MPG so it is 10-12 gallons not "Must be 20 gallons".  Prius 50mpg  500 mile range - 10gallon.

EV Pro wrote -"I could add a trailer to the back of my EV with two more boxes of batteries and increase my range to over 500 miles"  -- First physics is a funny thing add weight you lower effeciency.   First even if we assume 100mile range more than any standard EV to up that to 500 miles would take 4 more battery packs but wait their is more now you have the weight of the batteries and trailer so it is even more.

EV Pro wrote -"But, to recharge my three battery packs would cost me only $6 and to fill your tank is going to cost you over $75" --- Again 10 gallons gas not 20 so 37.5 and 5-6 battery packs > 10$ i am not going to do math on charging packs I will assume your 6$ for 3 for now.

EV Pro wrote -"But, your solar panels could recharge my 500 mile batteries in less than two sunny days" --- Again reality and pysics get in the way I already stated I have 1200W solar on a sunny day the best you could get in the US is equivelant of 9hrs at full power, you actually only get rated or slighly above for a couple hours around noon.  So let give it benefit of the doubt 10hrs of full solar power that would be 12KW a leaf has a 72 mile range with a 24KW battery so 2 days of sun would give you :wait for it: 72  miles not 500.  Even if you ignored the extra weight factor 500mile/72 * 2 days == It would take 13.88 sunny days for your not even 500 mile range

EV Pro wrote -"An electric car using your own solar collectors would save you so much in fuel cost that instead of  the solar collectors paying for themselves in 10 years"  -- This is more an economic factor than engineering so I will not worry as much but you cannot attempt to do a payback analyis on a solar system by assume savings from EV  without taking the EV added cost in the equation and their you #'s collapse.  Not to mention again the lack of real charging as show by above calculations.

EV Pro wrote -"that is why 80% of purchassers trading in a hybrid in the USA buy a pure battery" ---I think you might want to say that 80% of EV buyers previously had Hybrids.  The other statement is utter nonsense the Prius sold 147K cars in the US last year an increase from previous year the most common hybrid,.  Conversely the leaf which is 49% of US EV market share sold 9819 or 6.7% of the # of Prius's sold.  were does 80% come from.  If you don't believe check consumer reports or Wiki.


Now when you are ready to talk facts and real numbers please chime in but until then let those who wish to have an honest discussion speak candidly about how to move foward.

 

EVprofessor
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Re: Devil is in the details
EVprofessor   11/19/2013 12:21:15 PM
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@LetoAtreidesII, Your posts are very funny, Perhaps you would be more welcomed on the Daily Joke . org instead of Designnews...

LetoAtreidesII
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Re: Devil is in the details
LetoAtreidesII   11/19/2013 1:24:56 PM
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EV Pro - "Your posts are very funny,"  you state but I have backed mine up with  math and it is is accurate.  Show me were my math is wrong I have backed it all up with real #'s from milage rating for EV - 72 mile range of Nissan leaf right of their sales literature to how many solar hours at 1200W it would take to make that same leaf get 500 mile range.

Even with a Tesla your math is way off extended range tesla battery is 85Kw so that solar system would require more than 6+ days of sun to charge it even if their was no transmission loss and that is only 288 miles not your claimed 2 days for 500 miles.  Again I have the facts you throw out insults.  If my math is wrong show me were.

I am happy an EV works for you and as it does for others but that is not the discussion.  The discussion is the hidden devil in the details of mass EV adoption and the math behind it.

 

EV PRO ". you consistantly make unsuported statements and when a serious Industry Expert replies to your vague statements, you change your information, stating you have far different equipment than you had divulged previously" 

Please show me were I make vague statement or change my equipment.  I back it all up with math and data.  I called out 2Kw wind solar mixed, in same post I expand that to 1200W solar 800Wind.  were did I lie or change my equipment

a.saji
User Rank
Silver
Re: Devil is in the details
a.saji   11/30/2013 11:22:10 AM
NO RATINGS
@EVProfesser: A bit harsh isn't it. Its always good to have some sort of a humor involved so many can enjoy.                                 

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