If you want to start a debate about electric cars, the easiest way to do it is to mention costs. The price of electric cars leaves many consumers scratching their heads and wondering why automakers can't produce an EV that sells for a more reasonable price. But if you're going to launch that discussion, then brace yourself. The subject of conspiracy isn't far behind.
Electric car conspiracy theories come in a variety of flavors, ranging from the simple (carmakers price their EVs to fail) to the elegant (involving the crushing of GM's EV1) to the far-fetched (involving the suppression of secret battery chemistries).
The first flavor of theory came up recently on this site, when we mentioned that Toyota is selling its RAV4 EV for $49,800. Commenters wondered how the price could be so high. "Toyota's created a self-fulfilling prophecy, that these are going to sit on the lot," one reader wrote quite logically. That comment closely paralleled one from another reader (about a different article), who took it a step further by arguing that today's EVs are "designed to fail by being overweight, overpriced, [and] overteched."
The crushing of GM's EV1 remains the most prominent of the EV conspiracy theories.
The debate over the RAV4 EV's price won't ever reach the fever pitch that has long surrounded the crushing of GM's EV1 (which must still be the most monumental public relations gaffe in auto industry history). When we wrote about the EV1 last October, one reader caught the spirit of the moment by saying, "GM tracked down and destroyed all but a few of the EV-1's and the few that remained were disabled so they couldn't run."
Such debates are likely to continue for a long time. Many of the EV cognoscenti still believe that the auto industry is in cahoots with "big oil," and that the partnership is preventing the best battery technology from reaching the streets. The movie Who Killed the Electric Car? was partially built on that premise. It mentioned that the progress of EV batteries was interrupted when Texaco bought a stake in GM Ovonics, which made the nickel metal-hydride batteries for the EV1. If you check out any of a number of Websites, you can read the entire blow-by-blow of the alleged GM-oil industry conspiracy.
I have to admit that I draw the line at that one. Yes, I know that automotive marketing ain't beanbag (apologies for changing an old political phrase). I also know that high-level executives have been known to break laws to get their way. But after years of talking to battery experts at universities around the country, I can't believe there's a cleverly suppressed, world-beating battery technology languishing in a lab somewhere. If someone could build a battery with an energy density even one-tenth that of gasoline, scores of university PhDs would know about it. No conspiracy is that big.
Toyota may not know it, but by pricing the RAV4 EV at $49,800, it's unintentionally keeping the conspiracy talk alive. Even the EV loyalists, who praised Toyota for its persistence with the original RAV4 EV a decade ago, are starting to wonder. In an article on the new car, Forbes.com called the vehicle "stratospherically priced," and a Wall Street Journal reviewer wrote, "Sure, lithium ion batteries are expensive, but prices are falling and, well, I just don't see where the expense lies."
It won't take much more than that to get the conspiracy buzz going again.
Related posts:
For a close-up look at GM's Chevy Volt, go to the Drive for Innovation site and follow the cross-country journey of EE Life editorial director Brian Fuller.
Chris RE tsal went bankrupt, after delivering some cars and accumulating more than a million dollar backlog in repairs---googl elon musk tesla motors
I was just at the apple store today where they gave me a new battery , my lithium battery heated up expanding beyond the housing designed to hold it, interesting the variables, involved in lithium batteries and their rates of expansion
@trashercharged .Sorry for my hard-headed statements. GMC (or one of their companies) did build diesel power generators (electric part was built by GE).I have friends that love trucks and we do manufacture a variety of electric trucks in US, but used for utility , not performance.Thank you for all your points and I apologize if I was out of place.I just see EVs as "city cars" , "go to work" and "baseball mom" vehicles, because many of us do not make more than 40 miles per day.As far as price ...it is ridiculous , but some speculators are hitting on lithium and buying futures of it.
Please accept my sincere apologies if I wrote things out of place, or used caps lock.I have been in electronics for a very long time and I have seen things dor , or supresses for whatever reason it was.Thank you for your comment.It really took most of my thoughts and put them in a nice and precise form.All that you write about is true , maybe except nuclear reactors...where I would have some comments ,as far as safety is concerned.There is also a hot water problem and other things.But a whole thing is not about nuclear reactors , but about mounting a "brick wall" opposition to EVs.You know that my favourite scientist of all times was Nikolai Tesla and most of his patents and inventions are still suppressed.He was thinking a tleast 50 years ahead of time and he was a dreamer and realist(strange connection indeed) at the same time.Maybe my fascination with him made me who I am and influenced my thinking.We should give all science a chance. Take mp3 players.Most people love them and use them , not even realizing that a sound they hear has only 5% of original material sounding as it did , when it was created in a studio.The rest is digitally created "hush".
Not all new ingenous inventions had an easy way to a market, yet we have millions of them now and some we take for granted.I enjoyed every word of discussion with you and I thank you for this super interesting discussion.It means a lot to me that someone understood my point(s) of view.Cheers,
Dennis, your comments about the vast sea of safety regulations, warranty support, litigation, dealer parts support, unions and, most of all -- coming up with a design that will appeal to 70,000 people a year for five years -- are right on target.
Chris PE said "Well....interesting comments. First of all GMC does not build trains and NEVER did. <snip> When people buy $50.000.00 trucks they can afford 40,000.00 EV. NO DOUBT - END OF DISCUSSION.Cheers,Chris"
You're wrong - Google GM's Electro-Motive division which they just sold a few years ago.
And sure, I can afford a $40K EV instead of my $40K (not 50K) truck, but can it carry 6 passengers, 1 ton in the bed, tow a boat / car hauler / camper / Boy Scout trailer / Church trailer, etc so I can help those of you that opted for the EV instead move, haul that load of whatever for you, take your kids camping / boating or on whatever scouting / church youth activity you signed them up for?
Point is, not all truck buyers are soccer moms that never haul a real load or go off-road. For some of us, the EV just doesn't do the job.
BTW, I knew the other post was to Jackie-I was just throwing in some thoughts. Appreciate your clarification though-blog communication is often tricky.
Anyway, if I can avoid hitting my CAPS LOCK all the time I wanted to comment on your earlier post.
Nuke power-yes it is expensive upfront, but amortization is the point. Apparently the Germans are finding that, regardless of the initial costs other sources of power are amortizing better than solar and wind.
Solar friends-one thing that many folks miss in these comparisons is the human factor. Your friends with the solar panels are hobbyists who are utilizing not only the power of the sun but their own knowledge, effort, abilities, time etc that greatly improve the cost situation. Great for them that it is working out well, kudos to them. They have, I assume, made some lifestyle adaptations to compensate for any quirks to the power delivery. And that is valid.
The power companies have to deliver reliable power for a varied group of users and deal with govt regulations, inspections, peak demands, safety issues and all the issues involving the employment of large numbers of people and maintaining the infrastructure for delivery. It won't be free or easy.
This same issue comes up with the electric car hobbyists. They compare what they have done in their garge with the auto industry and can't see why no one is offering 1500 lb, $15k car that goes 100 miles on a charge. They seem to be genuinely mystified. But they aren't having to build to the vast sea of safety regulations, providing warrenty support, dealing with litigation, dealer parts support, dealing with unions, building and maintaining plants, and trying to come up with a design that will appeal to 70,000 people a year for 5 years while sharing the same platform with six other vehicle lines and amortizing the platform over a twenty year run and several million customers. What these guys do in their spare time is cool-but it is a long way from the challenges of running a successful car company.
Chris, you really seem to be a good guy and sincerely care about your positions. I really respect that. Just a peice of advise on message structure. When you (and many others) use highly charge imagery (nuke plants= "super bombs", IC engine cars= "stinky, oily monster") a lot of people who might otherwise listen to you will just tune you out.
Example: my wife and I and our kids (6 & 9) live about 20 minutes from a nuclear reactor. Frankly it never worries me at all. We are far more likely to be killed be a tornado or lighting or crushed by a semi on the interstate. And newer nuke plant desigsn are far safer. The only real disaster I am aware of were in countries (USSR for example) with serious issues on quality and maintainence.
I'm not saying nukes are the answer. But they are a viable option to me.
And modern cars are far cleaner than tose of just a few years ago-and will get better. EVs are a very long way from being ready, it is possible that CNG may play a bigger role near term but I suspect that gasoline/diesel IC will dominate for the next 25 years or more.
I try to keep in mind that solutions can't be built around what we think other should do, but have to take into account what they likely will do. Hoped for idealic "solutions" that will not happen do not help as much at all, we need realistic changes that can be implimented.
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