"If you look at the signatories of the op-ed, you won't find people more qualified than that," William Happer, a professor of physics at Princeton University and a signatory, told Design News. "These people are really heavyweights of the scientific world." (See a list of the scientists below.)
It's worth noting that the 16 scientists who signed the editorial aren't alone. Happer told Design News that after the editorial appeared, he received calls from colleagues who wanted to know why they weren't given a chance to sign.
The signatories aren't making a case for coal, oil, nuclear, wind, or solar power. They don't mention whether we should buy electric cars or gas guzzlers. By most measures, their opinion seems apolitical. They just believe that CO2 isn't a problem.
"The demonization of carbon has really distorted everything we do," Happer told us. "If we could back off and say, 'CO2 is probably good,' it would change the way we do things. We'd like to get back to an honest economic discussion not based on carbon footprints or assumptions about 'evil CO2.' "
Whether we agree or disagree with that assessment, it has the potential to affect everything that engineers do. Every day, engineers make decisions about the design of cars, trucks, furnaces, refrigerators, washers, dryers, and all kinds of industrial products. And the emission of CO2 plays into all those decisions. So a solid understanding of global warming science is critical.
In the wild world of the Internet, many bloggers argue that the science is settled. It's "incontrovertible," they say. But is it? Most scientists would acknowledge that the First Law of Thermodynamics is incontrovertible. So is the Second Law, Ohm's Law, Newton's laws, Bernoulli's equation, and a lot of other bedrock scientific principles. But does anthropogenic global warming really belong in the same breath as those?
It gives me hope that some people are capable of seeing the bigger picture when it comes to GW. I agree with all your thoughs. Here is one more to add to your list. Weather or not GW is the end result, what about all the man made posions that a being dumped into our world everyday?
As the article stated, this is a very complex issue and only a handful of people understand it deeply. I am not one of them. A lot of this climate change witch hunt revolves around whether or not it's man made. As such, things like volcanic activity, the sun, and many other "natural" influences are discounted. This is why I say this is a witch hunt and not science. There is little if any evidence that the last 10 years has yeilded any global warming. Man made or otherwise. Core samples and the like can give us pretty good information to help construct a historical record of how things were. We were in an Ice age. Of course we have warming... We can make some educated analysis but that doesn't mean we know everything. The witch hunters say we have to take action now. If that's the case, we should be moving away from the shore.
10 years ago the 'scientists' warned us that the world would end in 10 years if we didn't drastically change our lifestyles. It's 10 years later and the world is still here, better than ever.
If GW was happening and the poles are melting, where's the rising oceans? There is no confirmation of water rising other than normally. It's ok to talk about the possibilty of GW but to demand usary taxes on individuals for living is beyond belief.
Considering North America was covered in glaciers 30,000 years ago points to natural warming and cooling trends. We are at the end of a natural warming trend and a cooling one is coming.
Yes, you are partly right. Clouds are an important part of the GH Effect. Schmidt et al 2011 estimated the percentage contributions to the total GH effect of various components as
H2O 50%
Clouds 25%
CO2 20%
Other gases 5%
Clouds aren't a larger component than this because the entire planet isn't covered by clouds. And only some cloud types contribute to GH warming. Other types have a cooling effect by reflecting sunlight to space.The net effect of both of these is approximately neutral, perhaps slightly net warming.
So your comment " I would think the cloud effect has much greater effect than the CO2 concentration changes we have seen" is true. However the issues is whether the cloud component grows as the GH Gas component grows to maintain the same relative proportions. We know that the H2O component has to grow since in a warmer atmosphere you can have a higher water vapour content and in fact you need a higher water vapour content to keep enough of the atmosphere near Water Vapour Saturation to allow clouds to form. This is the water vapour feedback.
The question of what feedback clouds then cause depends mainly on whether the proportions of different cloud types changes. If they current ratios remain, even with an increase in total cloud cover the effect would be small as they two cloud behaviours cancel out. All the current research suggests that cloud changes will have a small net warming effect, but not on the same scale as the water vapour increase.
I know from my Heat transfer classes that the ground can radiate heat to the sky. Effectively this is the main source of heat transfer in an environment absent conduction and convection effects so there is only radiative heat transfer. If the sky is clear, the ground is effectively radiating heat to the sky which appears to have a termperature of around 4 degrees K as I recall. this means there is a large radiative heat transfer.
If there is a could cover, the sky (cloud) is at a much warmer temperature and nearly the same as the ground so the net heat transfer is very small compared to the open sky heat transfer.
This effect is not related to the GH gas properties at all. I I had to guess, I would think the cloud effect has much greater effect than the CO2 concentration changes we have seen. The only question is how much the cloud effect provides in terms of a blanket to protect the earth's surface at night.
I think it might be possible to construct some simple models of the atmosphere and examine the effects of CO2 and cloud cover in isolation. Without trying to include so many additional variables it might be possible to estimate the effects of CO2 concentration compared to a cloud effect. If these were the only variables within the simulation it might show some useful data without having to go through the full blown or more complete modeling problems.
Although I am contributing to the number of posts here, doesn't this say is all? This is really what is is all about, to create 'debate' were the evidence doesn't credit it? This is how the Apollo moon conspiracy, and UFO theorists gain publicity for their cause, it needn't be rational only controversial. Unfortunately, unlike these cases, it is not merely an academic argument. Climate change has important practical and moral consequences for humanity. Do the fake Skeptics realise this or simply don't care?
In 2002 the leading Republican consultant Frank Luntz, conceded that the party has "lost the environmental communications battle" and urged its politicians to encourage the public in the view that there is no scientific consensus on the dangers of greenhouse gases. In a memo to President George Bush, Frank Luntz wrote: "The scientific debate is closing [against us] but not yet closed. There is still a window of opportunity to challenge the science," Mr Luntz writes in the memo, obtained by the Environmental Working Group, a Washington-based campaigning organisation.
"Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly.
"Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate."
The phrase "global warming" should be abandoned in favour of "climate change", Mr Luntz says, and the party should describe its policies as "conservationist" instead of "environmentalist", because "most people" think environmentalists are "extremists" who indulge in "some pretty bizarre behaviour... that turns off many voters".
Words such as "common sense" should be used, with pro-business arguments avoided wherever possible.
non-mag. I didn't mention Glaciers. They are another possible threat but not as clearly defined. Declining water tables are a real problem.
Yes there is a lot of Natural Gas at present. But there is also a rapidly growing demand as well. Supply & Demand determines prices, not just Supply.
I didn't suggest that temperature change was the cause of the explosion in jellyfish numbers. It is most likely overfishing taking out the predator wish so their are fewer around to eat baby jellywish.
The point of my post to William is that we have multiple threats to our food supply as well as the oppurtunities. To just take a simple 'we can solve every problem because we have done so in the past' mindset is a bit PollyAnna for my taste.
Particularly when many of our 'solutions' tend to only be temporary answers. Using ground water to increase crop yields is a reasonable idea. But not a permanent solution since it runs out eventually. Good for a few decades but not forever.
The Himalayan glacial melt was only 8% of what was predicted over the last several years.
There's a large natural gas surplus right now - fertilizer should be cheap.
Temperature change was only one of many possible explanations of the increased jellyfish population in the Sea of Japan.
This is the type of information that makes me realize you can't just listen to "experts" and trust what they are telling you. You'd better listen to varying points of view and do research of your own before taking one side of this issue.
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