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Captain Hybrid

Tesla Model S Hitting the Road This Summer

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Beth Stackpole
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Practical, but still pricey
Beth Stackpole   1/18/2012 7:53:47 AM
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While it sounds like Tesla is making strides with addressing the battery life/capacity/size issue, the $50K pricetag puts it way out of the range of practical, mainstream vehicles, in my book, any way. Is this model meant to go up the lower price Nissan Leafs and other less expensive EVs? Doesn't seem like a head to head match.

naperlou
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
naperlou   1/18/2012 9:27:29 AM
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Acctually, Beth, I have an answer to that.  I was at an IEEE meeting where we had a former company executive speak about the car and the company's strategy.  Realizing that the battery technology was still way to expensive for a mass market car, Tesla decided on a phased approach.  The overall goal was to prove the viability of electric vehicles.  That meant getting some on the road and getting real world experience.  So, they started at the high end with a vehicle type that would not be a primary commuter car.  This was their sports model, which listed at about $100K.  The car in the article is the next step,  This is a mid-size car that goes up against the BMW 5 Series in size, price and features.  As mentioned in the article, the battery pack design is new, and potentially less costly than the battery in the first Tesla.  

The whole theory behind this is the new technology adoption curve.  A good example is flat screen TVs.  Early models, of perhaps 36" size cost over $5K.  Today you can buy a 46" or greater with LEDs and 3D capability for $1K or so.  New, ultra flat TVs are about to come out that will cost $8K, I have read.  There will always be some who are willing to pay for the latest and greatest.  As the prodcution ramps up and competitors arrive, the costs come down.

As for the Leaf and Volt, they are not really cheap for what they provide.  I think they are both in the upper $30Ks. 

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Rob Spiegel   1/18/2012 10:19:01 AM
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Naperlo, in mentioning Tesla's strategy, I wonder if the company introduced a lower-price vehicle (relative to its $100K car) in order to get a higher volume of sales. I can't imagine a car maker could survive long selling cars for $100K. Maybe I'm wrong, but just can't imagine there is sufficient volume at the price point unless you're BMW or Mercedes. Getting vehicles down to the $50k range could make a difference in volume sales.

naperlou
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
naperlou   1/18/2012 10:48:19 AM
Rob, that is precisely the point.  The high margin cars help get you started, but will never reach volumes.  The battery pack on the origial Tesla, which is a small two seat sports car, cost $25K and weighs 900lbs.  It also had a significant range (over 250 miles).  Compare that to a Volt or Leaf.  As they advance the battery technology, they will be able to bring out cars that compete in price with the Volt and Leaf and conventional hybrids that will open up a mass market.  I should think that this is only a couple of years away.

Alexander Wolfe
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Alexander Wolfe   1/18/2012 5:36:28 PM
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The big, unanswered question, of course, is when will the battery technology advance. Expectations to the contrary, the high-end, sporty electrics/hybrids like Tesla and Fisker have not advanced battery technology. When you look at those companies and run that numbers, that's not surprising. They simply don't have the cash to put into battery R&D. The conventional wisdom appears to be that batteries (capacity and energy density) don't follow Moore's Law and NEVER WILL. That's why I was pleasantly surprised to hear some positive expectations about battery research from a Mercedes engineer I spoke with last week at CES. Please see my story, "CES: Mercedes Foresees Progress in Batteries, Composites.

Ozark Sage
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Re: Practical... (NO Blinders ON critics)
Ozark Sage   1/19/2012 12:06:26 PM
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Could be that there are better ways to power EVs than what is presently being show outside of the research labs!  This transistion has more to do with BIG OIL than it does with alternate energy...and YES they DO exist!  Nikola Tesla DROVE a alternate zero energy car more than 70 years ago and I believe he would be proud of his name sake company and the way they are navigating the road blocks of of EV naysayers. 

TimJones
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Re: Practical... (NO Blinders ON critics)
TimJones   1/19/2012 1:30:24 PM
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Really? Tesla drove a zero energy car? Wow, i never knew that.

If you could come up with a car design that used zero energy, I think your sales would be pretty much unlimited.

Provided the price was right, of course.

 

Ozark Sage
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Re: Practical... (NO Blinders ON critics)
Ozark Sage   1/19/2012 2:07:22 PM
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Tim, the TERM scientific ZERO / energy refers to but sometimes also refered to COLD or DARK energy as found in/at space temperature NOT the absence of energy.  Refer to Tesla, Moray, Bostick, Bearden, Bush,R.T.,Cook,M.B., Davidson D.A., Dirac P.A., Farnsworth P.T. and many many more.  This istuff that will get you killed if markerted.  READ John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" and you'll start to understand what this is all about.

PS Tom when you see the light please pass these words to others.

 

Beth Stackpole
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Beth Stackpole   1/18/2012 10:44:48 AM
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Thanks for elaborating NaperLou and that strategy does make sense. The 50K range puts it in the same ballpark as other high-end luxury sedans/SUVs like BMWs and Lexus cars and if you consider the profile of early adopters, typically it is the gadget guy (or gal) who wants the latest in new technology, but also wants it nicely packaged in a high-end design. So basically Tesla is betting that the same folks that shelled out the thousands for the flat screen HD TVs before everyone was buying sub $1K flat screens or the pricey tablets before  knock-offs hit the market are the ones that will experiment with the "mid-priced" Tesla offering.

Charles Murray
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Charles Murray   1/18/2012 9:29:59 PM
I agree, Naperlou. Prices will come down with production volume. Using your $25K number, it appears their batteries cost between $500 and $600/kWh. Most experts predict that those costs will drop to around $400/kWh as production volume rises.  

Ralphy Boy
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Ralphy Boy   1/19/2012 5:43:06 PM
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One thing about this car as opposed to most of the other way too expensive consumer EVs on the market... if a much better battery does come along during the next 10 or 20 years it could be worth the cost of refurbishing and upgrading the Tesla S.

It's a good looking car in a classic kind'a way, and it sounds as though it was designed to be fun to drive... with a touch of luxury included.

Although I am a skeptic about the probability of a sudden leap in battery energy density/drop in kwh costs... if that does come... this could be a great platform for a car enthusiast (or anyone for that matter) to restore as a daily driver... w/the newer 1,000 mile range/high speed rechargeable  battery pack of course. 

 

Charles Murray
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Charles Murray   1/19/2012 7:15:58 PM
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I agree with you, Ralphy Boy, regarding the Model S being a great platform for restoration. It's a beautiful car. Maybe it's time for us to publish more photos of it and other new electrics.

Jennifer Campbell
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Re: Practical, but still pricey
Jennifer Campbell   1/18/2012 9:30:16 AM
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Good looking car, but I think you are right, Beth. The Model S seems to be made more for the driver who wants an EV, but also expects to stand out from the crowd while driving it. I can't help but wonder if all these car company's will eventually fall flat in their electric efforts because they are all trying to be better than the rest. At what point do they stop trying to impress with infotainment and other features? Yes, they are cool, but isn't a car just supposed to get you from point A to point B?

Car-Nut
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Iron
Re: Practical, but still pricey
Car-Nut   1/19/2012 9:56:22 AM
Finally, an electric car that doesn't look like one. No rear "fender skirts" and flat wheel discs. For those that still desire an element of excitement while getting from point A to B, this may just hit the mark. 

SystemsGuy
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Iron
The rice is right when compared to similar performance cars
SystemsGuy   1/19/2012 12:56:10 PM
The $50K price is just $10K-$12K more than the leaf, volt, and focus.  For a performance vehicle, I find the Tesla S to be a good value.  The Tesla S has exceptional styling, excellent cabin room, enormous power, and outstanding range. In the high performance models, the price gap with other performance cars all but disappears. You simply cannot compare this vehicle with the leaf, focus or volt.  Those are $16K cars that cost $38K.  It appears that the cost per kw in the Tesla is about half that of the other EV cars. 

j-allen
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Not so "green" as it could be
j-allen   1/19/2012 9:26:38 AM
Having enjoyed driving kerosene-fired steam cars, it would be fun to try Tesla's coal-fired steam car.  Coal fired?   Of course!  We just don't see the boiler and steam engine since they live at the power station.  A truly "green" electric car would charge its batteries from a renewable source.   About 20 years ago I designed a solar charging station for a friend's electric car.  It used conventional lead-acid batteries but it served quite well for commuting to work and back.  

 

 

RNDDUDE
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18650
RNDDUDE   1/19/2012 10:28:37 AM
In one respect, Tesla is taking a pragmatic and cost-effective approach in using 18650 Li-O cells, as opposed to engineering a totally new battery. 18650's are already produced in large numbers so their unit cost is already pretty decent due to economics of scale. They are just engineering the packaging of them, and due to their small individual form factor, the enclosure can be wrapped around drivetrain components as needed. It is not a long-term battery solution, but it is a good bridging approach and gets them into the market as the range leader. I think they will do OK.

John E
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Silver
Poor video
John E   1/19/2012 11:37:50 AM
The explanation is good, but I would have liked to see more of the vehicle instead of the talking head.  Show us some of the detail of the very interesting model that was behind her.

 

You know your an engineer, when you would rather look at the mechanincs than the pretty girl!

bob from maine
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Getting better
bob from maine   1/19/2012 1:32:47 PM
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The Model S is a step in the right direction. The market for a pure electric vehicla is relatively small. The Tesla brand has offered previous models with the emphasis on pure performance, but these Teslas had limitations. The British car show "Top Gear" tested a coulple of Teslas and proved that if you drive these cars insanely (flat-out) the published range figure is a joke. I think Tesla should be congratulated on offering a car that the devout EV buyer/user could feel proud to own and drive, recognizing the compromises in range/battery cost/performance that were made. The feeling of driving a performance car with the pickup and handling of a Porsche 911 with absolutely no noise and truly linear acceleration is unbelievable! Depending on recharge time, I could own a $50K Tesla as a 2nd vehicle; the deal breaker would be re-sale value. Ultimately I'm looking for the fuel-cell vehicle. One H2 fuel cell that would provide power for my car and house interchangeably. Meanwhile manufacturers like Tesla can give us vehicles like the Model S to keep our interest up.

Charles Murray
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Big oil conspiracy?
Charles Murray   1/19/2012 7:11:24 PM
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I have to admit that I'm not a big oil conspiracy theorist. I'm sure that big oil would have no qualms about conspiring with the auto companies. But from what I've been able to tell over the last 24 years of writing about this subject, a conspiracy hasn't been needed. Batteries haven't come close to oil in terms of energy or cost. And none of the materials science professors I've ever talked to at more than a dozen universities are familiar with a battery, or any other kind of energy source, that could put oil out of business. I ask this question in all sincerity: What are these (conspiracy) batteries made from and where are they?

Jerry dycus
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/19/2012 8:52:29 PM
 

  Charles. Have you forgoten the NiMH Chevron scam?  Chevron/Texeco bought the patents to the NiNH battery that was giving 130 mile range at 100mpge in the RAV4 and EV-1 until Chevron forced them to stop using NiMH more than 10amphrs.  Stopped EV's cold 15 yrs ago.

   I've recieved about every PR release on batteries, EV's and you can see mde up groups by big auto, oil lying about EV's like saying their batteries would be deadly when there already was 500milliom large lead batteries already in service with little problem.

  Check out the film, Who killed the Electric Car for many other instances.  Like lying that the charge ports in the EV-1, E-!0 couldn't be cheaply fixed. Or refusing to sell the EV-1 and all it's liabilities for $25mm profit to the wealthy owners.

Only Toyota sold their RAV4EV and those are still going strong with many over 100k miles now and sale price is $75k vs the $45k they sold for so making a profit after 12 yrs of free driving using no gas and few repairs. 

As it will be with the 'overpriced' EV's which bought now and sold in 5 yrs likely because gas prices so high sell for it's new price, costing little.

Certainly my EV experience using cost effective forklift EV tech and lead batteries shows EV's can run at 25% of the similar ICE does. Just because some want to make them in ways to make them look bad and expensive, doesn't mean they can't be cost effective.

BTW the Tesla S is a smart way to do EV;s, light and the chassis shown will also do a SUV, Van and other models from it inceasing the economies of scale.  Notice they use the $250/kwhr retail priced lithium cells and are the most sucessful EV company.

 

Ozark Sage
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Ozark Sage   1/20/2012 12:25:13 PM
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Dead on Jerry!  Of course, now, on the news, is another Gas Price Hike!  Seems to me the refiners havent learned last summer's lesson of higher prices = less economic growth and lower fuel sales.

On the subtect of scams the R&D people aren't as gullible as the public and have formed inventive ways to combat BIG OIL BUYOUT KILLS of imaginitive invention and brillant engineering.  Distributed geographics of patents, fab facilities and joint ownership development, are but a few methods useful in this end.  Security and timing is also very productive.

In TESLA MOTORS case I believe them to be dead on target and I am sure they understand how to win this game.    

Jerry dycus
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/20/2012 2:49:06 PM
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Sorry Sage I don't agree with your scams like everything named Tesla except Tesla EV's.

Brown's gas/HHo, Tesla turbines, zero energy point, Fish, other carbs, etc are all scams and don't pass basic physics or real life  tests.

Vs eff things like EV drives that are naturally eff at 20-65% in cars vs 7% for ICE's. Thus EV's, unlike your scams, actually threaten big  oil by allowing any energy that can be made into electricity run them and big auto where they lose their most profitable market, ICE/ICE system parts which have an average markup of 2,000%.

As an example I get 250 and 600mpg equivalent in my EV's using 40-100 yr old tech and can rebuild the motor if it ever needs it in 30 minutes for well under $100.  That is a real threat to them and I'm laughing all the way to the bank.

If you think your scams are so good do them yourself and sell electricity from it and make a fortune.  Nothing is stopping you other than they don't work well, eff.

 

timjor19
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
timjor19   1/21/2012 1:23:34 PM
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Jerry: Sounds interesting. Can you tell me more about how I can be free of big oil?

Thanks! timjor19 at gmail dot com

Jerry dycus
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Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/21/2012 6:26:42 PM
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  Tim the lowest cost way is take a golfcart EV transaxle and a MC, attach the rear MC suspension to it and put real deep cycle lead batteries where the ICE/trans use to be.  A good scrounger can build a 45-55mph one for under $1k. Others $2-3k.

Switch the rear tires to VW Rabbit ones, the 6vdc batteries for 12vdc Deka, Trojan, USBattery 60-72lb ones, modify the controller, charger for double the voltage/72vdc.

City range about 60 miles staying mostly under 45mph.  Or higher speed range is better if an  aero body is made.

2wh MC's are good too.  VW Bug, Karman Ghia are excellent car choices.  Google EV Racing or EV clubs and follow the websites links to many local EV clubs likely near you.  They will be glad to help you. Tell them I sent you a many know me.

Secret to economical EV's is  lightweight and good aero. 

timjor19
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
timjor19   1/23/2012 1:32:29 AM
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Thanks! I was even debating just making a pedal cart cause I could use the exercise and use people power for even more efficiency. Were else can you get so much energy out of a stupid potato chip? :)

timjor19
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
timjor19   1/23/2012 1:38:17 AM
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I am guessing the reason you dont go with LiON cells is cost? I know they have a lot of kick for the weight. A good source of Lion batteries would be to get laptop batteries but I suppose the complexity of the charger and the risks associated with LiOn's is probably not worth it.

Jerry dycus
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/23/2012 8:47:47 PM
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timjor19,   I see no reason for Liion now since I can easily build a lead EV that gets 60 to 100 miles on $1000 and $1400 battery packs good for 4-7 yrs.  Why would one spend $6-10k and all the hassle?

My way is use tried and true older tech that is mature and very cost effective.  I can go 80-90 miles on the 3kwhr of electricity it takes to refine 1 gal of gas too which is also nice on the pocketbook.

By the time my lead packs die Li-ion will be cheap and reliable. I'll switch then.   KIS and cheap!  Big Auto is not going to like me in 2 yrs when my vehicles show them up for less money.

Laptop batteries is exactly what Tesla, Toyota are using!!  Thousands of them.

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   2/1/2012 11:16:56 AM
teslas which creep along when the lithium batteries expand and heatup, remind me of the russian lada, or a government paid for car, a little different, by a government without scientific expertice to avoid bankruptcy experts, and continue to operate under the pretense they can make things happen with words, like solar power and commercial long range electric cars, both which are illusions by tricksters---perhaps if we can avoid another electionfraud. like 2008, all this BS will begone---coalfired electric energy cars, is not presently green energy, and even if it were, electric cars and planes are a ruse to get the unwary investors money

 

Jerry dycus
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   2/1/2012 10:08:35 PM
 Your facts are wrong and obviously you are politically motivated instead.  Please learn some critical thinking skills and actual instead of made up facts, instead of listening to Rush. 

I drive my EV's every day at 25% of the cost of a similar ICE.  And I use RE power.  By the time any number of EV's are out there in 10 yrs, coal will be a small fraction of our electric grid.  Just $1.3k/kw, sunelec.com,  of PV panels can charge an EV for 30 yrs!!   That is what I call real conservatism. 

And your path keeps us in oil wars/terrorism and 5 of the last 6 recession were from oil shocks.  Which is more patriotic, EV's or oil?  Or do you like killing and running our country into the ground  for oil?  If the real cost accounting was used, both coal and oil would double or more in cost.  

 

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   2/29/2012 12:50:02 PM
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the electricity comes from coal fired power plants, you claim to clean electric energy is delusional

Jerry dycus
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   2/29/2012 5:00:47 PM
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Jackie you seem to be an expert on delusional ;^P

How about so facts to back up your delusion?  I did for mine.  You only bring biased opinion it seems.

So keep spending all that money for gas and remember me spending just a couple $ to fill my EV.

I'll take my EV and RE to the bank and you have fun with fossil fuels taking you to the poor house.  I've done EV's for 20 yrs and RE for 40.  They didn't happen before because of massive oil subsidies but now RE, EV costs are dropping and FF rising with a bullet, their time is now.

   And you call me delusional? Maybe one should get one's head out of the sand and look at the real world. 

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   2/29/2012 11:40:49 PM
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the laptop battery powered teaslas heat up and creep along, elon, lost a lot of money (sneaked away with) while pretending to enter the auto market elon got the idea to perform his hostile takeover from the company and design Eberhardt, had accomplished, from the 2 tiny canadian electric car companes existing there, elon saw an opportunity to invest in tesla because eberhardt was strapped for cash, the company in development, allowed elon to get involved in the shareholders meeting and pulled off the preabjudicated hostile takeover, which requires a lot of legal fees to fight, fees eberhardt did not have. Other bankruptcy experts in canada have perfested the scheme of stealing companies performing the stunt on money hungry company founders like eberhardt. How elon became friends with barry soretoe is anyones guess, but barry comes from chicago, a mafia city, similar to pther canadian cities they have penetrated, They are similar, and are just thieves. Barry has invested in solar city, gotten elon contracts to install solar panels on military bases, spacex with the published idea that privatization of NASA is best, ending shuttle 2, Constellation along with the loss of the 8500 real science team jobs at NASA, while elon toys around with aerospace projects like attainig a height of 185 miles with a splashdown return, like the 60's aerospace--- actually since obama appointed an atrronaunt to run NASA, Bolten, or whatever his name is replacing the real science teams that designed the worlds only space craft capable of exiting earths magnetosphere, operating independently of earth, able to service chandra and hubble, which will soon be lost without shuttle to service them. Satallite launches, a market we launched 87 % of the actual satallite launches world wide, before obama and bolten has dropped to near 25 % and descending, in spite of satallite roles in modern warfare. the electric car, powered by coal fired power plants, plays a smutty green power card. Other more practical alternatives to gasoline or combustion powered cars are hydrogen from water, which one japanese company is entering the market, as i recall honda is also exploring the water powered cars using the hydrogen and oxygen as an element of the power source. I look forward to seeing an end to barry and elon, elon especially because if you yook the time to read about his actionsclaiming an internet philanthropist, claiming to have founded tesla, and pay-pal, a company he aquired a 16 % portfolio of their shares, and for a short time was on their board before being fired, his claim as as a scientist uncovers he dropped out of grad school after 2 days I worked with several industrial management consulting firms before starting up several companies,m operating profitably, in canada, unfortunately I sit up the headquarters in montreal before the parti quebecois came to power, resulting in being one of the 600,000 procanadian, or american people they ethically cleansed from quebec. While I spent near 22 years in canada, I witnessed first hand the criminal reality of americas business world, Elon got his cars made offshore, while setting up showrooms the world over, muling it around with his own plane, operating on the deposites, 50 % of tesla buyers, investors, fooled by the immense P R Stunts that fill the internet, getting IPO's past the unethical stock exchange only adds to the probability of his funding via world class mafia moles that have come to inhabit our government, pulling off stunts like free trade (slavery), which ignores the fact accrued taxation 66 % of retail products made in america is lost to the countries  politbureau, or rulers, while their super stores shutter america manufacturing infrastructure, and small family goods and services, mostly. the myth of clean energy electric cars also reports nothing about the cost of old batteries, or the chinese lithium control of their market place. elon and barry are just a couple of puppets involved in taking down america, playing the very real game of misdirection, kinda like talk football. spacex is like a comic book, solar city should have went the path of solandra, and will as soon as obama is gone, Tesla, has showrooms, but the factory front, is lacking in an actual manufacturing company, with most deliveries always being put off until some later date. Actual design engineering manufacturing, marketing companies, which before free trade america produced 55 %  of the worlds durable goods, when  our infrastructure provided more jobs than people, was lost to the criminality who looked the other way as slavery returned to america, in duty free goods made by virtual slaves, chinese workers make 1 dollar to every 38 dollars american workers make, the myth of globalization, much repeated to justify the fact> Lawyers, judges, politicians, the lawmakers enact laws by virtue of lobbie cash the corrupt senators and congressmen are paid with chump change from the slavers, one family alone, the waltons, take more cash from our economy than 30 % of americas poverty stricken actual job market, where 80 % are paid near or below minimum wage, while 56 % of our youth between 18 and 29 are without work. elon and obama are short lived,in their present activities, as the time is drawing close, when america will no longer tolerate biggotry in city, county, state and federal electorate appointees, with their czars and mini czars, america will remove criminality from government one way or another, america will restore import taxation resurrecting our manufacturing infrastructure, and the small family businesses it supports---obama and elon are not a factor of reality, in upcoming times, but thats the game bankruptcy experts and criminals who have attained power forsee, they are in it for the short term. Elon Musk has continued to (take) lose money since  his pretense of entrance into the design, engineering, manufacturing, marketing of real products, and will soon be gone, thats the good news. The bad news is he is still with us, always in the news, much like obama, a treasonous unsurper, looting our treasury, ignoring our constitution, acting like some communist dictator---Stalin once said " he who votes doesn't count, but, he who counts the vote counts ", as obama by executive order has assigned the splinter groups census responsibility, which also includes voter protocol. the latest census report states afroamericans outnumber whites, etc in the United States of America, which may well comply with the reported vote numbers coming from the oval orfice   

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   7/30/2012 11:27:57 AM
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spending my money on gas for the cadillac DTS gets about 30 mpg on road trips, likely to survive any crash with the coalfired power plant powered electric pseudo-green cars. Oh Yeah the tesla, promised year after year, was also promised last year, I would guess production will be stalled pending another attempted election fraud, if our fag pres wins the election fraud, then its likely the american taxpayer will continue to give elon mush the cash that dissappears down the rabbit hole, oh yeah, How on earth can you create a million dollars in pending repairs to less than 2 thousand old teslas lithium batteries heat up expand, and the rapid tesla creeps along with its flashers on praying to not get rearended, the probable end of anyone in the tiny car, if you can call it that---since when is truth delusional ?

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   2/29/2012 11:44:47 PM
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Hitler powered his entire war using coal, distilled into gasoline. the only reason we are not burning coal-gasoline, is their is no ethical, or logical we are not. The calculated cost, 1.14 a gallon not counting delivery and retail.

Jerry dycus
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   3/1/2012 8:50:34 AM
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    Jackiecox, don't hold back, please  tell us how you really  feel  ;^P

     Yes the Tesla power struggle was messy and the same thing happened at Aptera killing that 300mpg car that actually did 300+ mpg.  My FreedomEV is really a more normal version of it.

       Next Hitler didn't fuel all his army on coal, it's just such a poor source was all he had left near the end and most of the plants got bombed too. And it was mostly used for lube oil, greases, waxes, not fuel which in the end was methanol from wood mixed with whatever they could find.  No a shining example.

       The 'coal' was really more old peat moss than coal and filled with minerals that made the process too expensive as they killed the catalyst which then as now it expensive.

       In the US is loaded with energy in so many forms. Just converting 50% of wasted energy would over double our supply!!!  And so much coal, shales and sands along with tight oil/gas, massive  biomass, enough solar, wind to power the world, huge tidal/river without dam resources, geothermal, etc.

The question is how much does each cost?  Is it ok to kill 30,000/hospitalize 150k/yr from burning coal? Who pays to clean up the mining mess and pollution seeps that will last 100's of not 1000 yrs?  What value is it that one can only eat fish/2x's/wk because or coal mercury emissions?  What about buildings, bridges, etc corroding from coal?

As a fiscal conservative I believe in full cost accounting and people paying for damages done instead of me paying in my income taxes, health care costs, etc.

Now look at how RE should be done and will shortly, cost are now on well shopped RE are at retail coal price and will not rise, in fact pay off in 3-5 yrs and almost free for 20-50 yrs after that.  Please tell me how FF's are going to compete with that?

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   3/1/2012 12:23:28 PM
New coal fired power plants are virtually without emissions. Mercury control, by sorbent injection is being installed in the old power plants. the risk of mercury intake in fish is related to the age of the fish. The presence of mercury is a recent risk exposed by new instrumentation, and especially insidious because hg in its various phases escapes;esps, wet fgds, and other toxic emission scrubbers installed as our instrumentation reveals sources of toxicity. I would argue with your stastics on the dead and sickened by CFPP's, because the academic studies do not include all the variables, and were made with predisposing influences by the varius academic whores who sell them

 Refined coal as another hydrogen based fuel supply, is a sound source, the refineries designed, using liquified coal are spectacular, and could be placed at the mine, perhaps some other president/DOE may well seek out this valuable resource, and the multitude of others abundent everywhere.

The problem rests in our political-science academic caste system vs industry, or the subjective opinion selling credentials under the insistence our human mind is capable of storing all the variables, anomolies, then rendering human opinions that are based on the variables. The end result is being played out as we watch americas manufacturing infrastructure, and small family goods and services suppliers replaced by slave goods outlets, with our; science, technology, jobs, and accrued taxation exported to the tyrannical trading partner/s, enacted into law by the Lawyers, judges, polioticians, paid to do so by the lobbies, who work for the slavers, resulting in a nation without the accrued taxation to maintain our infrastructure. Before free trade we made 55% of the worlds durable goods, a wealthy middle class society, now we are in the midst of change as our political realm are looting our treasury, before it is lost to the trading partners who use free trade as a weapon to shutter and/or steal our nations productive assets, while focusing on ending our military, while buiding their own---through their lobbies in our government---I used to work for a broad range of our manufacturing infrastructure whose laboratories supplied the world with its instrumentation, little remains of those days. I listen and read with disdain the political arena, who have coined the word globalization to explain away our lost infrastructure, as they move onto international citizenery, seeking a one world power gatting the trash made by slaves and sold to their protectorate by poverty stricken hirelings, evidenced by 80 % + of americas jobs pay near or below minimum wage---the waltons take more cash from our nations cash flow than 30 % of our work force---the nations largest employeer, whose avg employee wage has dropped from near 12,000 a year to 10,400 a year in the last 3 years.Watching a president who encourages increases in the price of gasoline, while shutting down offshore drilling permits for our nation while granting permits to russia, and china, in our waters, in his attempt to push his idea of energy sources we should be using, without an understanding of economics, or scientific reality. I watch our nations demise, and still have hope we will restore import taxation, equalizing the difference in chinas slaves who get paid 1 dollar for every 38 dollars americas employeers make,. just one element of the equasion as to why our factories and small family goods and services companies which once supplied our nation with more jobs than people. Its difficult to watch a senate and congress who turn a blind eye to the return of slavery to our nation, and the dire consequencies to more than 99 % of our citizens---Stalin put it well, describing our current situation " He who votes doesn't count, but, he who counts the vote counts---by executive order obama assigned census responsibility to the acorn splinter groups disbanding for the 2008 election fraud. Their last tidbit of census reporting afroamericans outnumber white, et al americans, census responsibility includes voter protocol. The upcoming civil war, between affirmative action currently occupying our cities, counties, states, federal electorate appointed authority, will be interesting to watch, as responsibility is restored to government, and information technology takes its place in society 

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   3/1/2012 12:32:55 PM
Personally I have difficulty placing any value on the words liberal, conservative, etc etc used to describe all the individuals involved in government other than to describe criminal commercial gangs, that reside there, who enact hundreds of thousands of new laws across the city, county, state, federal, and agency realm---I do however see change on the horizon as we replace the current form of government, with objective management who use industrial science to manage our nations assets, while ridding our political arena of most current job descriptions currently in place by law, while ending the legal-medical-insurancefraud mafia, the prison society, while using information technology to identify deviant bahavious and treat it for the root cause, mostly physiological  abnormalities--actually, disabling our academic caste system, and their idea of human opinions---replaced with data processing as a tool for making the best informed decisions

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   6/12/2012 7:07:15 PM
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1 saves
after manufacturing gasoline from liquified coal serious scientific studies, considering th rel variables of scale, have predicted coal gas is cheaper than gas from petroleum when petroleum reaches 34 $ a barrel, only 21 gallons of a typical 44 gallon barrel of oil separates into gasoline, the other 23 barrels become components of hundrend i=of thousands of products, both coal and petroleum are petro chemicals, distilled they are similar in the coumpounds that can be made from them. The Cartel which operates our economy, largest oligopoly is the petroleum industry, where pricefixing in cost of automobile fuels, subject to oligopoly and price fixing laws goes un prosecuted by holder, because of obamas bizarre ideas include; electric cars, wind and solar power are americas future exposing his lack of experience or training in industrial aspects of the world, similar to other lawyers not disbarred, who agreed to free trade whoes slavery cost us 2/3rds of our factories, and shuttered most of our small family business economy that once provided america with more jobs than our population, the accrued taxation allowed us to lead and protect the free world where tyranny is now on the verge or taking over, as he weakens our military capabilities and continues to export our jobs.

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   6/12/2012 7:21:39 PM
our information sources differ, but, even now Germany has to import their petroleum, WW2 where Italy, and Japan partnered also were without significant petroeum, where did they get the fuel and what kind of desil did they use ? its interesting to always  have new perspectives

 

 In the 70's I was involved in a DOE sponsered study of manufacturing anhydrous ethanole, from corn where desil was made with adding peanut oil.  Hydrogen fuels are a very inteesting study, there are so many that have been used over the years, our current gasoline uses ethanole in its mixture because the compound burns at a higher temperature providing a cleaner and more powerful source of auto fuel,  interesting Brazil uses ethanole solely for its autos as it make  and grows what it consumes, which has provided it with a working sheild against the failure iof the free world as china uses free trade as a weapon to destroy the free worlds economic model requiring accrued taxation to support the infrastructure. a chinaman compared to the america worker makes 3.8 cents for every dollar we earn, as the marxist nation is going thrugh its modernization phase, in preparation to end the free world

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   7/30/2012 11:56:42 AM
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JERRY DICUS google> plugincars.com, they keep track of sales only, not repairs and recalls. I have trouble understanding your comment about delusional, perhaos a little research on your part might make you the delusional person you claim I am when it comes to manufacturing and economic justification---sure---there are a lot of old ladies driving around in their pseudo-green cars, thinking they are saving money, they don't count too well, the 40,000 toyto prius about as small as a kia rio, with a short lifespan, will lose out comparing what it costs for the electric hybrid, vs the cost of a kia rio, wh9ch uses gas, both cars are entitled to one crash in the cars lifetime, and usually the same goes for the driver, should the contact a heavier gasoline powered vehicle, I watch the tiny helicopters at brookstone, powered by coalfired elictric plants,and listen to elons statement where he intends to build an electric air plane, and start a colony on mars, he did not say it exactly but pigs fly.

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   7/30/2012 12:03:31 PM
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shell oil held a contest of highschool science teams to come up with a drivible car that could get the best milage, two teams designed and built cars that got more than 2000 mpg, one cylinder, bely drive hooked up to the axle. Our youth, self educated on the internet are way ahead of your 300 mpg car, but the petroleum lobbie oligopolie determines the price of gas, and what gars we drive. Plugincars.com tells it like it is, no electric car company has yet t payback the cost of engineering design and manufacture of its ev's, whe the sales are equated, electric cars are not new at all, from time to time they are tried, and each time the smaller scale experimentation leads them into higher magnitudes, where the scal change dissolves the economic models of small scale 

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   2/29/2012 11:48:08 PM
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You must actually believe petroleum gasoline is all there is, now thats delusional perhaos self induced, because education comes from interest, the data is our there, if you take time to search for it, but to do that requires actual interest, and a real understanding of the scientific method,

Charles Murray
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Charles Murray   1/23/2012 7:11:55 PM
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Jerry, thanks for the memory jog regarding the Chevron NiMH situation. For those who haven't read about it, here's a web site:

http://www.ev1.org/

I've never checked out the details of the Chevron story personally, but my preliminary take on it is that the Chevron situation doesn't appear to have had much effect on the state of electric cars in the long run. Nickel-metal hydride was a good, but not earth-shattering battery chemistry. As you know, the EV1 used it and NiMH technology hasn't disappeared. It's still available but manufacturers don't choose it for today's pure electric cars because the energy density is still too low in their opinions. Their battery chemistry of choice is lithium-ion. Regarding Toyota RAV4 EV: Yes, they are still out there but Toyota is still not a big believer in pure electric cars. They've opted for the Prius family of hybrids for a reason: They believe that big lithium-ion batteries are still too expensive and don't offer enough to the consumer. Two weeks ago, one of our contacts at Toyota told us, "If you want longer range, it means more battery, which means more cost. A lot of folks are telling us that the cost is going down, but we are still estimating it at over $1,000/kWh." She said that Toyota is again dipping a toe in the water with the new RAV4 electric, but they are not big believers in pure electric technology. Bottom line is, I have no problem believing that the oil companies and car companies have conspired, but I don't believe it has made any difference. I've yet to hear any university-based materials science expert say that better technology is actually available, or that a big oil conspiracy has caused it to go away. You make a compelling case here, Jerry, but I'm still not buying in.

 

 

Jerry dycus
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/23/2012 8:36:38 PM
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  Hi Charles, I don't expect you to buy it made a difference when you won't even admit Li-ion can be bought from many different companies retail  in large amphr EV sizes for under $500/kwhr and small cells made by Panasonic used by Tesla only cost $250/kwhr.

The details is Chevron bought the NiMH patents from GM and Ovonics then would NOT let anyone make larger than 10amphr.  So no EV's other than E bicycles could use them because they don't work in parallel packs.

At the time EV's with NiMH batteries were selling as fast as they were made and were getting 120-140 mile range and over 5 yrs actually cost less than an ICE.  That terified Detroit and big oil.  Detroit because they lose their real money maker, after sales ICE system parts with the modest markup of only 2000%!!!  An E motor has one moving part plus 2 bearings and designed well lasts 100+ yrs with bearing changes every 1ook.  So please tell me other than their fear, why they wouldn't fill the obvious market?

Battery energy only make a big difference if you don't change the vehicle design for lower drag.  Don't forget the lead battery EV-1 got 80-100 mile range shows what a real EV can do.

EV's as businesses who use them for other reasons like forklifts who's EV drive tech I use, and golf carts, don't have any problems.  I've used mostly 40 yr old motors/controllers for most of my EV's, just clean them up and good for another 40 yrs.

Whether Toyota likes EV's or not doesn't matter on whether EV's are viable, though makes my point well. Their excellent old  RAV4EV, which isn't really a RAV4 chassis, proves my other point, EV's are viable.

Composites can drop weight, cost, parts numbers, labor and double EV's range.  Why don't they use it?  It's not like it's new. My tech used is 45+ yrs old.

So yes it's a wide conspiracy of corps doing what they do best, fight any new change out of fear.

My new composite chassis I did today for a 3wh car only weighs 90lbs and complete with body, about 160lbs BTW.  If I can do it, why can't Detroit? 

Ratsky
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Ratsky   1/24/2012 12:58:10 PM
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The simple answer to "Why can't Detroit do it" is just that, simple: YOU don't have to comply with 20,000 pages or so of vehicle safety requirements, etc. including crashing many vehicles in the process.  Will your 160 lb. body/chassis survive a wall collision @30MPH or so?  Will YOU?  Do your vehicles have airbags and all the other safety gear REQUIRED to legally sell vehicles to the public?  Also, EVERYONE ELSE uses the SYSTEM cost for the battery SYSTEM, not just the cost of cells. I do agree that Tesla made a wise choice for their battery pack design.  It also (depending on manufacturing details) may even lend itself to economic refurbishing of the packs (replace bad cells, etc.).

Jerry dycus
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/24/2012 9:16:29 PM
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Ratsey, Detroit wrote that book, just like they wrote the  '54.5mpg' standard,  to keep competition out just so you know.

While this exact body/chassis won't, future ones and my FreedomEV RT certainly are as crash resistant as steel cars.

I'm doing a series of them, prototype now and finished composite monocoques that are little different from the most expensive Ferrari, McLaren sportscars except far lighter with 2 and 3 wheels.

Since they are legally MC's I can have the safety systems I chose which are the same as a F-1 which drivers walk away at 220mph crashes into walls like the one a couple yrs ago. If one is a good designer, safety doesn't have to weigh too much.  By combining my body, frame, battery box, battery,  and other parts to strengthen each other added to composites natural advantages in weight to make not just as safe, but safer.  

Packaging a battery pack including BMS only cost $100/kwhr on custom units. 50% of that in mass production.  I garrenty Tesla isn't paying more than $250kwhr for packs and others not more than $350kwhr.

Charles Murray
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Charles Murray   1/24/2012 8:29:45 PM
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Jerry, I respect the work you do in EV conversions, but I respectfully disagree regarding the "wide conspiracy of corps." Going back to the late '90s, industry analysts (Pike, J.D. Power, etc), university professors at MIT, University Michigan, University of California, Cal Tech and the Department of Energy and Argonne Labs and the Center for Automotive Reserach have cited a need for greater energy density and lower cost in EV batteries. None have lamented over the Chevron/NiMH situation. All -- analysts, universities, national labs -- can't possibly be involved in the "wide conspiracy of corps." 

Jerry dycus
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Gold
Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/24/2012 9:25:21 PM
NO RATINGS
 

  Charles my and others EV experience tells a different story.   As I will show very well soon, lead batteries and their high weight still because of EV's eff if you don't handicap it with excess weight, can easily do 95% of US trips.   With a small 5kw/1000lbs generator gives unlimited range solves any problem of range that might be.

There are no technical reasons cost effective lead battery EV's can't be made for less than ICE's even if they wanted to.

I've proved this to myself and building ones to show others and make a really nice profit!!

 

Ozark Sage
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Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Ozark Sage   1/20/2012 7:30:02 PM
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Charles, they are not batteries but, in a mutiplicity of ways "Green" generators.  As Jerry points out E-Cat has merrit, and the recent Italian termoil over E-Cat and  Lehigh Univ is being settled.  Stan Meyers extensive water based patents also work, so do numerous obscure energy production discoveries made over the years.  Some of the best of these are controlled by candlestein government groups arround the world.  So, exclusive of Black-Ops types, we are left with a wide variety of choices just recently being seriously investigated for use and manufacture.  

Several of these use a combination of technologies based on magnetics, safe fusion, nanoscale secondary effects, ordinary elements, their reactions and stimulated transmutations.  Many of these have been tested by respected government and university labs and R&D centers for years around the world !  

So WHY is your EV still using battries?   Well I leave that to you to answer now that I have your attention.

Jerry dycus
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Gold
Re: Big oil conspiracy?
Jerry dycus   1/21/2012 6:15:11 PM
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 Sage, No I don't believe Ecat has merit, just another scam like all your other bull.  You are a easily fooled idiot or a scammer.  Which is it?

Why do I stil use batteries?  Because I need something that actually works unlike your scams.

PPihkala
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Iron
Great for Tesla Motors
PPihkala   1/20/2012 2:36:06 PM
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It's great for Tesla Motors that they can have more models available. I think it is good that electrical propulsion is advanced.

 But really I think that we will get rid of ICE when the power can be generated in car, not just stored there. I may sound like a fool to some, but I really think that the black horse of (automotive) power generation will be ECAT developed by Andrea Rossi. So take a car like Toyota Prius and replace the ICE in it with suitable sized ECAT. The battery will probably be needed to start the ECAT and to give assist at acceleration. The price of that ECAT energy will be so low that when this will be available, no-one will ever want to buy other fuel (than nickel powder) for their locomotive needs.

jackiecox
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Re: Cheap EV'sRe: Big oil conspiracy?
jackiecox   7/30/2012 11:46:48 AM
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fat chance of that happening with an internet philanthropist/phycist/wizard, who losses billions of taxpayer money, a manufacturer is usually headed up with industrial engineers, me's, ee's materials engineers, etc, when we still had our factories, before free trade whereby slavery is shoved down our economy, the missing accrued taxation destroying our nation, while the slavers take the money and run, real auto manufacturers, who use auto-cad in real car factories. A petrochemical powered car is still a petrochemical powered car whether you you use gasoline, or electricity that comes from coal fired power plants. The commenters on this post are simply unaware of the variables, as exposed in their oneliners,. maybe a degree in business admin, or psychology, ha ha ha---phycist, making anything but trouble, that will be the day---whether its solar city, spacex, or tesla, this bankruptcy expert will be around so long as people continue to throw away their money on his imported goods, which he losses really big money year after, approaching a decade of continual loss. when will it end, solar, wind, barry soretoes decision to replace energy with has spent utold billions, and still gives us around 2 % of energy, which cost more than the petrochemical it uses  to produce, when all variables are used in the equasion of economic justification. Sure their are applications for wind and solar, windmills have been filling water troughs for centuries for livestock drinking water, isolated lighting can be supplied with solar panels, or silicon, with a metal backing, and a glass cover to keep the silicon from the atmospheric conditions that still destroy the glass, just slower than silicon---barry and elon, engineers they are not, economic justification is too hard to spell for theives, much less calculate.

 

 

jackiecox
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tiny ev's
jackiecox   7/30/2012 12:06:39 PM
NO RATINGS
freedom ev, goodluck with that, and be very very careful

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