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Captain Hybrid
GM Investigating Pure Electric Cars
9/6/2011

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Battery engineering teams from GM and A123 have tested and validated the A123 battery chemistry  and are now working on software controls in preparation for production.  (Photo courtesy of GM)
Battery engineering teams from GM and A123 have tested and validated the A123 battery chemistry
and are now working on software controls in preparation for production.
(Photo courtesy of GM)

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Charles Murray
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Re: Good sign
Charles Murray   9/9/2011 12:44:36 PM
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To cvandewater: I know you are right about the $1/Ah figure. The situation for production automakers is different, however. We will explain that in an upcoming blog next week. Please watch for it.

cvandewater
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Gold
Re: Good sign
cvandewater   9/8/2011 8:22:56 PM
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Hi Charles,

I looked at the sales price on battery manufacturers websites.

I also follow the EVDL, the EV Discussion List at evdl.org. There are not only many home-builders of EVs on that list (who have ordered their packs from various sources) but also professional designers of battery packs and EV drivetrain components. I can recommend consulting the list and its archives when you have any question about EV related issues. Since most on that list are vendor-neutral and have no fish to fry other than to finish their own home-conversion, they will share their experiences and knowledge freely without being locked into a certain relationship or beneficial relationship to any one supplier or technology. Very refreshing. And free.

My message to you: don't believe everything you hear, do you own research. Especially when something is so blatently impossible that it can't pass the sniff test.

It is possible that you simply referenced old data (Li-Ion prices have come down quickly in the past few years) or you got data from one of the outlets that, unfortunately, try to spread FUD about EVs. Getting fresh data will clean out any and all of these issues and avoids you spread FUD or outdated information. The onus is on you to verify the information you post. Especially if you receive info from parties that have an interest in what you post. My professional work has no relation to EVs, so I have no interest in manipulation in any particular direction, but I do have an aversion against lore and less-than-true stories. So if I see something presented as fact that I know is not true, I will respond.

Charles Murray
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Blogger
Re: Good sign
Charles Murray   9/8/2011 3:33:41 PM
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To cvandewater: The information we use comes from MIT, Lawrence Berkeley Labs, University of California, Center for Automotive Research, Lux Research, Pike Research, GM, Toyota and Argonne National Labs, among others. Your information is probably better, though.  

cvandewater
User Rank
Gold
Re: Good sign
cvandewater   9/8/2011 2:50:19 PM
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Charles,

you need to do your homework.

Lithium batteries today cost around $1 per Ah, so a 24kWh pack like the Leaf has equals approx $7k if you buy cells as a private person.

Many people actually do this for their home conversions of a vehicle they like, to make it all-electric because the car manufacturers are lagging.

If you are a big corporation then the price will likely be different than $7k.

How else would the Leaf sell for almost the same price as you claim the pack would cost? Does not pass the sniff test and contradicts the reality of the Li-Ion battery market of today.

JRoque
User Rank
Gold
Re: Hybrid or electric?
JRoque   9/8/2011 10:16:07 AM
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Good point, Charles. My criteria is that if you find yourself at a gas station buying gasoline for your car, you're not driving an electric.

Charles Murray
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Blogger
Hybrid or electric?
Charles Murray   9/7/2011 10:27:46 PM
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Whether we refer to the Volt as a hybrid or an electric is a matter of semantics. It burns gasoline, which is hybrid-like. It drives the wheels through electric motors, which sounds electric. At 70 mph, it employs an unusual power split in which power moves from the IC engine to a generator-motor to a ring gear in the planetary gear set. That sounds hybrid-like. So which one is it? Hybrid? Electric? Who cares. Call it whatever you like. We all know how it works.  

curious_device
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Buildings make up 40% of CO2 emmissions in USA
curious_device   9/7/2011 3:17:24 PM
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This is especially true with all of the pneumatically-controlled poorly maintained HVAC systems in office buildings.  Many of these buildings are heating and cooling at the same time.  THAT's energy efficiency!

curious_device
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Gold
Yessss...
curious_device   9/7/2011 3:12:02 PM
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"We are all 150% behind Electric Vehicles. In fact we are eagerly awaiting the Ford Explorer EV.  With any luck it'll have lead-acid batteries to go with the 4500 pound curb weight."

This message brought to you by the Coal, Gas & Nuclear Electric Producers of America.

Darel Coterel
User Rank
Iron
Buildings make up 40% of CO2 emmissions in USA
Darel Coterel   9/7/2011 3:07:25 PM
Commercial and residential buildings make up nearly 40% of CO2 emmissions in the USA.  Transportation makes up 33% and these EVs will only supplant at bes a very small % of that 33% as these EVs would only be able to target "passanger cars" for replacement or about 36% of the transportation CO2 emmisions.  If (that's a BIG if) they replace all passanger cars w/ an EV the overall impact would be around 12% but most of that would get shifted to a coal fueled power plant.  Realistically, maybe 10% of the passenger cars would get replaced by an EV for a 3.3% reduction in CO2 emmissions from transportation but, the majority of that savings would shift to a power plant (most likely fueled by fossil fueled power plant 60% are coal fueled).  You might gt a reduction of about 0.3%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JRoque
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Gold
.
JRoque   9/7/2011 1:59:09 PM
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The Volt is a hybrid. It's ICE engages directly to drive the wheels under certain conditions like when your cells are drained and/or you're driving over a certain speed or demand additional power. This electric, genset, ICE combination is what makes it so complex.

For the $41,000 the Volt costs you can buy a brand new car, take it's engine out, put in an electric motor, controller and batteries that drive 100 to 150 miles on a single charge. That's all at retail prices. OEMs should be able to make a true electric car for much less than that and not require taxpayers to pay for their R&D projects like we're doing now. They have everyone thinking that the batteries are so expensive that the Gov needs to pay THEM to give us an electric car. Here's an electric car conversion example. All retail prices with no volume discounts:

HPEV AC50 motor and Curtis controller: $4,400
(36) 200Ah LifePo4 cells: $9,000
2011 Chevy Aveo: $12,000
Misc stuff like cables, charger, etc: $5,000
Labor & beer: $10,600

So why can't GM make a reasonably priced electric car then?


IMHO, any argument regarding EVs that includes lead acid batteries in the equation has little validity. LA batteries are not a viable power source for an electric car; for a golf cart maybe but not for a real car.

Pollution emission in an ICE does not start at it's tailpipe, it starts way back at the oil drill rig. End-to-end measurement shows that even if you get 100% of your electric power from dirty coal, you will still emit less pollution than when using gasoline. But, in fact, most of us don't get all of our electric power from coal but instead from solar, wind, hydro and nuclear.

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