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Petroski on Engineering: Engineering & Civilization

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Charles Murray
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Re: Lessons of failure
Charles Murray   5/4/2012 6:43:09 PM
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I don't know if risk taking should be encouraged in all areas of business, Rob, but I can't see how you could have very much success in the area of innovation without it.

ChasChas
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Before we get too excited...
ChasChas   5/7/2012 10:01:26 AM
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The underlying commonality of these great enigeering feats is slave labor. Would projects of this size been built without slave labor? I wonder if the engineers worked under forced conditions.

Even today we enjoy great products build under dubious conditions in foreign countries that are lax at preventing unfair labor conditions and human suffering.

Great article, Petoski.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Before we get too excited...
Ann R. Thryft   5/7/2012 4:18:54 PM
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We know for sure that today there are truly awful conditions for many workers in different parts of the globe. But it turns out that not even the Pyramids, the supposed classic slave labor example, were built entirely with slave labor. Most evidence now points to wage workers building them. As far as the megaliths go, many were apparently built by local communities over long periods of time.


Charles Murray
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Re: Much of what is built today will barely last a lifetime ...
Charles Murray   5/7/2012 6:53:31 PM
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I'll add a point to your point, Droid. The cars of the "good old days" were doing well to get to 100,000 miles. Today, many vehicles reach 200,000 to 250,000 miles. Today's cars are far, far more reliable.

Rob Spiegel
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Re: Lessons of failure
Rob Spiegel   5/9/2012 12:53:05 PM
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Good point, Chuck. Risk is not an intrinsic virtue any more than all movement is forward. I think the point of the IBM study is that the company had created a risk adverse culture and that was a problem that needed to be solved. I'm sure IBM has lived through 17 cultures since that study. My guess is that rick adversity is not the company's major concern any longer. They may be more worried about whether all major golf courses are willing to welcome their CEO.


Rob Spiegel
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Re: Much of what is built today will barely last a lifetime ...
Rob Spiegel   5/9/2012 12:57:48 PM
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That's good news Bdcst. I didn't realize some of the Android handsets were doing that. It would be nice to see Apple adopt that model. With each new release, they send millions of phones to the trash can.

Dave Palmer
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Materials and civilization
Dave Palmer   5/11/2012 12:35:01 PM
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Being a civil engineer, Professor Petroski naturally focuses on monuments of civil engineering.  Certainly the examples which he gives, such as the Pyramids, are iconic of the civilizations which produced them.

But as a materials engineer, I'd like to think that the role of materials engineering has been even more fundamental to civilization.  After all, entire historical epochs are named after the materials which were used (the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, etc.).  The Mesoamerican civilizations prove that highly advanced societies can be built using primarily stone tools -- but they were unable to defend themselves against less-civilized European invaders, because the Europeans had steel weapons.  And, of course, the Bible records that the Bronze Age Israelites were unable to overcome Caananite tribes who had iron chariots.

Of course, mechanical engineers might argue that tool use is even more fundamental.  It used to be said that tool use is what separated humanity from other animals, although now there is some evidence to the contrary. (And, by the way, all tools need to be made out of something).

All in all, it seems clear that it is difficult, if not impossible, to separate the superstructure of human civilization from its technological and material base.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Materials and civilization
Ann R. Thryft   5/11/2012 4:07:56 PM
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Dave, I agree with you about the importance of materials and materials engineering, as well as structures and civil/architectural engineering, helping to define different eras of human cultural advance. Since those advances happened at different times in different parts of the world, the Old Stone, New Stone, Bronze and Iron Age labels turned out to be not as useful as when they were invented to describe what early archeologists were discovering about ancient European history. I think the combination of materials and what's made with them--tools, machines, buildings, art--are some key indicators of the nature of a particular culture, as much as the particular ideology.

Dave Palmer
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Re: Materials and civilization
Dave Palmer   5/11/2012 5:40:39 PM
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@Ann: You're definitely right about the "three age" classification system not being particularly applicable to Africa, Australia, or the Americas.  I was alluding to that with my reference to Mesoamerica.  On the other hand, history might have turned out very differently if the Aztecs had developed ferrous metallurgy.  In terms of civil engineering, Tenochtitlan was much larger and better laid-out than any city in Spain, and Nezahualcoyotl, who is credited with designing the city's levees, was probably at least the equal of any Renaissance European thinker.  But it's hard to beat gunpowder and steel.

Ann R. Thryft
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Re: Materials and civilization
Ann R. Thryft   5/14/2012 2:41:21 PM
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Dave, "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond is a great read and also an excellent analysis of the big-picture reasons behind why Spaniards conquered the in many ways more advanced New World cultures, the Incas and Aztecs, instead of the other way around. The lack of iron and steel is certainly a major, but not the only, factor.

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